« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2009, 10:38:03 AM »
the reality of the situation is that tarpley has a far more realistic approach then the malthusian genocidal austrian insanity of allowing the entire system to collapse i.n order to obey the pure trickery posed by the snakes at the austrian school. What the austian school proposes is we take the economic expansion of 7 billion human beings and collapse it by pegging it to a piece of metal and strangulating the economy of currency to develope a sustainable amount of infrastructure that their beloved free markets are utterly INCAPABLE OF BUILDING...Thereby depriving billions of PEOPLE Of basic needs like CLEAN WATER TREATMENT PLANTS For example. you think the maglev is a waste ? go read a history book about what the intercontinental railway did in the 1800s. Austrians see any activity for general welfare of humanity as a waste while they NEGLECT THE FACT That modern capitalism is not possible without modern infrastructure.
in addition the austrian school neglects to acknowledge all modern private sector technology is DERIVED From non other then federal infrastructure investments. For example all modern computer chips... Where did they come lfrom ?. The kennedy space program. The internet ? Darpa. modern trade routes ?. The intercontinental railway.... So you want the free markets? the free markets DONT EXIST. It is a utopian ideal. An acronym for goldman sachs and jp morgan
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Quote from: planning4acrash on April 03, 2009, 06:34:39 PM
A dollar greenback would be horrid. Politicians, given power to print it would, and one would see a return to inflation. Fail to limit governments power to print money by providing discipline with gold, and they will take advantage of it. Just imagine yourself with a printing press, surely you'd want to print a few trill for you and your friends? We are all the same in that respect. You may want to print it to do good, but it would have the same immorality and same negative affect. You may not do it, but your successors will be lining up to take advantage.
Gold backing would fix the money supply to avoid deflation. A Greenback would tend to deflate after this horrid bubble.
Glasteagle was only required becase the fractional reserve system required restraints.
Austrians believe in regulation, but only regulation that protects property rights, and enforces contract i.e. to limit the power of govenment to print money (protect money ownership), and protect freedom via natural common law, as per the declaration of independence, magna carta, etc.
You cant have it both ways. You are either an Austrian or not, you cannot say "OH, Glass Steagall was needed but everything else isn't" and then say "OH social secrurity is bad but it would be rolled back LAST", "Oh, Derivatives are bad but everything else is ok".
You double speak quite often in regards to Austrian teachings, which are essentially the Government is the enemy and cannot under any circumstances build anything for the General Welfare of the population nor regulate the infallable economic system that will never fail so long as the enemy, Government, stays out of it.
Glass Steagall alone proves the Austrian school is complete hogwash but we can go deeper into the matter if you wish.
As for the Greenback, if the currency was ISSUED by INVESTING it DIRECTLY into INFRASTRUCTURE it would have LABOUR attached to it - as opposed to a PIECE of METAL - and infact - you're Gold Standard policies have utterly FAILED numerous times in U.S. History, let's start with the Brilliant Andrew Jackson who blew half the countries wealth by disintigrating a currency?
No absolutely not, you worry about inflation - do you realize that if a Gold Standard were implimented you would slave for the rest of your life to pay a few Thousand dollars worth of debt off via the biggest Deflaitionary HELL ever experienced?
You would literally be a slave for the remainder of your life
How about the Great Depression? we were ON THE GOLD STANDARD prior to FDR taking office , did it stop printing of money? No, 100 Billion dollars in Gold Redeemable currency was issued by a PRIVATE bank (Hey hey Private, the Austrians love it) when the FED had 4 Billion in it's reserves.
It is dumbfounding that someone can possibly argue for further de-regulation after witnessing what the PRIVATE SECTOR , not the GOVERNMENT, did in regards to creating 1.5 Quadrillion dollars of ficticious capital.
It is even further dumbfounding that one would argue an investment into a maglev for instance, which would triple the speed of Trade Transit and cut the cost in half - to argue that it is worthless?
You want the Austrian School policies, go impliment them in the United Kingdom, and here in the U.S. we will use the American System, that was founded under our first President and Treasury Secretary - then we will see whos economy expands and who returns to the stone age.
The audasity of even suggesting pegging 7 Billion souls economic opportunities to a Domestic Gold Standard is in itself suicide - you may has well do what the Japanese do and take a katana and gut yourself, because that is exactly what the result would be if we follow the "The Government cannot interfere, let the system collapse and put it back on the gold standard policy" - which would result in Martial Law due to a complete economic failure on tune with the Lombard Collapse of 1342.
You want disease, plague , deflation, poverty and genocide? then allow the bubble to explode and let the whole system collapse, as if there would be a functioning currency after such a thing happened for the "Solvent" banks to buy up the "Insolvent" Banks, when in reality nearly all the Commercial Banks in the world, which nearly all businesses in the world depend on , on a daily basis, are 100% Insolvent.
-Revolt426
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Quote from: planning4acrash on April 03, 2009, 03:54:42 PM
With Tarpley's solution, you will see big contracts for illuminist corporations, at the expense of local mom and pop businesses, because the huge government programs would push up bond yields and crowd out the corporate investment sector for decades.
Once the public sector has grown back again, demand for maglev can be met, once the economy has saved up enough cash to pay for, and developed enough demand to support a new system. Maglev, under those circumstances, would be focused on actual need that won't need state support. Developed via private subscription and investment from savings, from a 100% deposit banking system, the expansion would be non-inflationary and therefore stable for the future.
With economic freedom, it would be shocking how fast the economy would grow. We would see 20% GDP rise per year, in the first half decade. You haven't lived through that, but just look at the history books. We would repeat the stupendous growth seen in the 19th Century, when sound money existed, and America was the envy of the world.
#1 the proposal is not to build infrastructure via NO BID contracts, but infact to build via contracts that are BIDDED on. IN addition to that, illuminists would be put in front of a Pecora Commision like entity and put in jail under Tarpley's solution.
#2 "Once the public sector has grown back again..."
And you fail to realize nothing will EVER grow back again without basic infrastructure in place, considering the railways in the US are literally FALLING APART, along with the Bridges, Roads and every other bit of infrastructure that has not been updated in 4 decades. Labour is prior to capital - you wanna print money and give it to the private sector and pray they do the right thing? it doesn't work - history is certainly not on your side here. Infact, everytime a private robber baron has patented technology it has been locked away in a vault and never resurfaced.
#3 "With economic freedom, it would be shocking how fast the economy would grow" - How do you define economic freedom? with the definition you offer Goldman Sachs and it's financial masters in London would grow and 4/5ths of the worlds population DIES.
-Revolt 246
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Planning4crash your lack of education historically is unbeleivable. You say the amazing growth in the 1800s was a result of the gold standard and free markets when in REALITY the united states was virtually bankrupt during the runup to the civil war due to the exact policies you are proposing. And infact revival of the greenback by lincoln and his credit system is what reindustrialized our nation and was copied by bismark of germany which re industrialized germany...... Which is where king edward came in.. Forced the german keiser to oust bismark and orchestrated world war 1 as a direct result of the lincoln style system that industrialized both nations and therefor was a threat to the british empire. Your skewing of historical facts will not work here.
again you fail to understand that a maglev would be occupied by not only people... But physical goods... And again you fail to realize modern infrastructure such as a maglev is required to replace our current rail system that is literally falling apart from 40 years of neglect..... In addition one more fact you fail to comprehend is that a maglev would triple transit speeds and cut costs potentially less then half for private sector trade. It is quite astonishing for someone to spew disinformation...be debunked and then do it agan
-Revolt246
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I have not been debunked. You have failed to learn, listen or apply logic.
ANYBODY who says that the economy needs just two big projects is a blithering idiot.
We had an economy that boomed, WITHOUT maglev. Its collapsed into itself, and apparently we need Maglev. Its total insanity, probably only one illuminous company is capable of maglev and mining the moons, its crazy. Just stark raving bonkers. Yes, crumbling infrastructure needs rebuilding, but first, we must re-build the monetary base, and build factories and get people farming. This will involve a significant amount of movement of people, I'd imagine, many will leave the cities and start work in rural/semi-rural areas, where they can farm, mine, and produce to their hearts content.
Just say I'm right, and the economy needs to shrink back from huge UN sponsored cramped "sustainable" cities, just suppose I'm right, Tarpley will be in a 20th century mindset, literally fighting tooth and nail against a free market that actually needs potholes filled in country roads, alongside a few standard freight rail lines, which will spring up where industry CHOOSES to congregate, not where Tarpley DEMANDS a maglev station.
I can just imagine Tarpley the Fat Controller, standing there declaring "HERE BE A STATION, YE SHALL START UP BUSINESS HERE OR BE DAMNED", so the proles reply "I WANT TO LIVE ELSEWHERE, THE CITIES ARE STARK WITH NO SPACE TO BUILD IN OR LAND TO TILL", Tarpley replies, "YOU SHALL CONFORM TO MY UTOPIA, GO TO THE TARPLEY RE-EDUCATION CAMP, AND PAY YOUR 40% MAGLEV TAX", so the prole starved, couldn't afford to start up a business, and certainly couldn't afford the maglev ticket. Reduced to poverty by Tarpley, the prole was pleased that Greyhound still provided affordable travel for Thanksgiving.
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What people need, is less taxes, more money in their pockets and less parasitical government and big pork barrel nonsense spouted by people like Tarpley, who, capable of assessing the current moment, are criminally insane, when it comes to planning the world's biggest economy.
Revolt 246: Your denial is unbelievable, so let us go over a few BASIC FACTS about the Austrian Schools policies and what you are flat out IGNORING and REFUSE to address. How about you address the following instead of giving me mathmatical statistics that are irrelivant:ANYBODY who says that the economy needs just two big projects is a blithering idiot.
We had an economy that boomed, WITHOUT maglev. Its collapsed into itself, and apparently we need Maglev. Its total insanity, probably only one illuminous company is capable of maglev and mining the moons, its crazy. Just stark raving bonkers. Yes, crumbling infrastructure needs rebuilding, but first, we must re-build the monetary base, and build factories and get people farming. This will involve a significant amount of movement of people, I'd imagine, many will leave the cities and start work in rural/semi-rural areas, where they can farm, mine, and produce to their hearts content.
Just say I'm right, and the economy needs to shrink back from huge UN sponsored cramped "sustainable" cities, just suppose I'm right, Tarpley will be in a 20th century mindset, literally fighting tooth and nail against a free market that actually needs potholes filled in country roads, alongside a few standard freight rail lines, which will spring up where industry CHOOSES to congregate, not where Tarpley DEMANDS a maglev station.
I can just imagine Tarpley the Fat Controller, standing there declaring "HERE BE A STATION, YE SHALL START UP BUSINESS HERE OR BE DAMNED", so the proles reply "I WANT TO LIVE ELSEWHERE, THE CITIES ARE STARK WITH NO SPACE TO BUILD IN OR LAND TO TILL", Tarpley replies, "YOU SHALL CONFORM TO MY UTOPIA, GO TO THE TARPLEY RE-EDUCATION CAMP, AND PAY YOUR 40% MAGLEV TAX", so the prole starved, couldn't afford to start up a business, and certainly couldn't afford the maglev ticket. Reduced to poverty by Tarpley, the prole was pleased that Greyhound still provided affordable travel for Thanksgiving.
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What people need, is less taxes, more money in their pockets and less parasitical government and big pork barrel nonsense spouted by people like Tarpley, who, capable of assessing the current moment, are criminally insane, when it comes to planning the world's biggest economy.
Let's start with History:
1: THE GREENBACK
You claim the economic boom in the 1800's was due to "Free Market" "Free Trade" and Gold Standards, 100% FALSE . DEBUNKED, DISINFORMATION. The FACT of the matter is, when Andrew Jackson came into office in 1829 and implimented your Domestic Gold Standard policies it resulted a temporary boom followed by a self destruction of the economy in 1837 via destruction of the State Issued currency and over issueing of Gold Convertable Notes. In the years after the panic of 1837, the U.S. Gradually moved towards complete bankruptcy until Lincoln was elected President. Lincoln , being an intelligent human being, removed the gold standard and revived the Greenback, directly investing it into agriculture technology and the Intercontinental Railway. What this did was it allowed the U.S. to BYPASS British Controlled Trade Routes and spurred the private sector by giving them a faster, more effecient alternative then naval routes.. After Lincoln was assassinated the Railway had already taken it's toll pushing the United States to the state of world economic superpower, this prompted Chancellor Otto Von Bismark of Germany to MIMIC the exact railway and credit policies of Lincoln, which he indeed did.... and the result was a tremendous re-industrialization of Germany.
NOW, In comes King Edward the 8th of Britain, Uncle of Keiser Willhelm of Germany. Otto Von Bismark made a secret peace treaty with the Czar of Russia to NOT INTERVENE should Austria invade the Balkans, to prevent continental war. So, the Keisers uncle King Edward pressured Willhelm to OUST Bismark, which nullified the peace arrangement and allowed King Edward to Draw Austria, Germany and Russia into a continental WAR as Britain sat back and essentially watched the other powers destroy each other, typical British Empire dirty tactics.
AFTER World War I, Britain, at the Treaty of Versailles blaimed the entire war on Germany and forced them to pay reperations. This , combined with the War debt put such a tremendous burdain on Germany that it was virtually unable to continue to function , and without real leadership it lead to Hyperinflation....... the most importent aspect of this is, without the Treaty of Versailles , Germany would not have collapsed.
2: The GOLD STANDARD
Let us begin with addressing the fact that the Gold Standard is a form of Anglo Dutch Usery because they have a monopoly on the world gold supplies and we can go from there.....
Now Let's emphasis what the Gold Standard would RESULT IN, AS IT DID in the 1830's:
Keep in mind, in the 1800's there were MILLIONS of people, and we are in the year 2009 with a Word Population of 7 BILLION HUMAN BEINGS. So, you propose we peg the BASIC economic needs and expansion of these 7 billion human beings to a piece of metal. The Result of this is nothing short of pure GENOCIDE. Besides the ABSURD notion that gold has intrinsic value, considering gold cannot grow little GOLD LEGS and produce Labour and PHYSICAL GOODS that other nations purchase, There is not enough gold on the Planet to sustain 7 Billion Human Beings if pegged to economic expansion. The main result would be a deflationary holocaust - so riddle me this. If you purchased a house via a 200,000$ mortgage and the dollar returned to the Gold standard, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PAY IT OFF AFTER THE RESULTING DEFLATION?. Keep in mind, the Gold Standard would strangle the economy for currency which is in itself a crime against humanity, but regardless, if payrolls go down and the dollar deflates you will be a SLAVE for the remainder of your life, paying off a mortgage, or even a simple student loan.
3: INFRASTRUCTURE
This includes the Gold Standard, because if it were implimented , the Nation States would not be able to build VITAL things such as Clean Water Treatment plants and Nuclear Power Plants which are the very things neccessary for the sustaining of 7 billion people world wide. Can you provide me with a solution to surviving without drinking water from the Von Mises book of insanity?. In addition, you fail to comprehend that without basic infrastructure in place the private sector will be UNABLE to rebuild it self, and keep in mind that the Private Sector is 100% BANKRUPT. So, you propose we WAIT , (As if any private sector growth would be even possible after the complete collapse of an economy) , Until the Private Sector "Grows" and allow the Private Sector to build infrastructure...... now that is what i call genocide, considering it would likely take the private sector atleast a decade, probably TWO decades to even attempt to rebuild itself, and with a Gold Standard it would be virtually impossible.
Please address the above 3 issues then we can continue debating, because these are the 3 major issues you have completely ignored. Thankyou.
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"so riddle me this. If you purchased a house via a 200,000$ mortgage and the dollar returned to the Gold standard, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PAY IT OFF AFTER THE RESULTING DEFLATION?"
Shouldn't have been an idiot, spending that much money. You should go bankrupt, houses would then become affordable, and government can get out of providing affordable houses because the free market has provided them, and I don't need to be taxed to pay for affordable housing for poor people, because rich people want stupid prices propped up.
If you were stupid enough to not see the housing bubble, you don't deserve your money. You certainly shouldn't tax somebody like me who is clever enough to see it coming and invest accordingly. Tax me, and, you reduce my ability to invest sensibly in the future and provide you a job.
though, given your stupidity, I doubt your job will be better than toilet cleaning. But that's fine, we all have to start somewhere, maybe, forced into toilet cleaning, you will wake up, smell the coffee, and work towards doing something productive, rather than being a mouthpiece for parasitical government whores.
So you openly admit you are a genocidal maniac, it finally comes out...... the "CATTLE WERE IDIOTS" for taking loans out and trying to provide shelter for themselves, let us kick them out of their houses and make them slaves...... again you fail..Shouldn't have been an idiot, spending that much money. You should go bankrupt, houses would then become affordable, and government can get out of providing affordable houses because the free market has provided them, and I don't need to be taxed to pay for affordable housing for poor people, because rich people want stupid prices propped up.
If you were stupid enough to not see the housing bubble, you don't deserve your money. You certainly shouldn't tax somebody like me who is clever enough to see it coming and invest accordingly. Tax me, and, you reduce my ability to invest sensibly in the future and provide you a job.
though, given your stupidity, I doubt your job will be better than toilet cleaning. But that's fine, we all have to start somewhere, maybe, forced into toilet cleaning, you will wake up, smell the coffee, and work towards doing something productive, rather than being a mouthpiece for parasitical government whores.
And in a sickening way, by calling everyone who took a mortgage out to purchase a home an idiot because it does not abide by your FALSE POLICIES
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Oh i have to address this one, for your own education. The Dollar WAS NOT ON THE GOLD STANDARD DURING BRETTON WOODS - IT WAS AN INTERNATIONAL EXCHANGE RATE CONTROL MECHANISM that ANCHORED THE DOLLAR TO GOLD at 35$ an OUNCE. It was NOT convertable to Gold in any WAY SHAPE or FORM.
And the exchange rate controls that your school fights to avoid, are precisely what WE NEED, because we are having an economic breakdown crisis and certain currencies are going to hyperinflate while others deflate rendering impossible to TRADE. IN addition, the floating exchange rate system we now have allows the speculative vultures to come in and short 3rd world countries currencies, drive them down into destruction and then swoop in with the IMF to loan them money and privatize/rape/pillage their coutries.
America built itself by FREEING itself from a domestic gold standard, as for Fort Knox - FDR's Bretton Woods system was NOT a Domestic Gold Standard as i just mentioned.
One must NOT forget, your cultish behavoir in face of debunking on a multitude of occasions in this thread alone, and your insanity in regards to allowing (BILLIONS) of people to die, to follow the "Laws of Von Mises" is nothing short of pure Selfishness, USERY and GENOCIDAL MURDER.
Again, i'll revert you to the excellent article i posted about 5 or 6 posts up about the FACT That due to the principles of allowing the Private Sector which is dominated by inbred oligarchs who happen to come from your so called Nation, to follow Austrian policy and "Not intervene" With the sacred markets when HUMANITY ITSELF is at stake....... this proves you are guilty of the worst kind of Usery.
"Let's forget 'ALL THAT NONSENSE' about the fact that there isn't enough Clean Water, Food or Energy on the planet, so we should allow 5 Billion HUMAN BEINGS to be kicked out of their houses via foreclosure, go bankrupt and STARVE TO DEATH.
You are nothing more then a SOCIAL DARWINISTIC piece of filth if you advocate "Forgetting that Nonsense" - and infact - when YOU lose your job, lose your home and your nation fails, you will be on the street and you will get exactly what you deserve.
What makes you better then the "illuminists" as you call them, as if they are enlightened in some way shape or form?. You advocate precisely what THEY DO, which is allowing the "Idiots" aka the CATTLE to lose everything and STARVE TO DEATH to OBEY a CULT of Market Rules invented by a group of shadey individuals... Hence putting the "Rules of the Von Mises Free Market" BEFORE Humanity Itself.
What makes you better then a Nazi? can you please tell me? considering this crisis threatens to wipe out atleast 4 billion human beings and you refuse to engage in rational debate and provide ways to SAVE these HUMAN BEINGS, and instead follow a cult of economic laws that are complete falsehoods?.
What is the difference between that and being a Nazi? It is pure usery and when you are finished using, you discard "Let them go bankrupt and kick them out of their homes, they are idiots".............
Infact, you have already proven your "Model" would result in "GENOCIDE" and you REFUSE to address that issue - and as far as the Deflation issue, your solution is "They are idiots, let them go bankrupt" , kick them out of their homes and let them starve to death.
You alone stating you are an Adam Smith worshipper along with a Von Mises Worshipper is proof you have not done sufficient research OR you just refuse to admit you are wrong - because Adam Smith was nothing more then a puppet of LORD SHELBURNE and a collaborater with Karl Marx to setup YET ANOTHER paradigm that you have obviously fell right into, and refuse to even do the research on what you are preaching.
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By the way, the addition tidbit, which i call a BOLD FACE LIE - by inserting the paradigm of "IT's either the Bailout, or Austrian school" is a falsehood in itself, because the methodology Tarpley is suggesting has NOTHING TO DO WITH A BAILOUT WHATSOEVER. You refuse to acknowledge that there is anything in between "Bailout" and "Austrian School" - when there is this system that the United States was FOUNDED on, which prevented the United States from going bankrupt via WAR DEBTS and simoultaniously built the Nation. The Bailout has not been advocated by ANYONE here, including Tarpley. SO infact, you are setting up your own "It's the bailout or Austrian school" Paradigm, and in addition you are insulting the United States, not Webster Tarpley. It would also do you good to look up what the word "Socalism" Means, which is when the Government SEIZES MARKETS, which no one has even SUGGESTED here. |
-Revolt 426
-Revolt246
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As far as "INSTRINSIC VALUE" - it does not exist, and what has been posted in this thread proofs beyond any doubt that the value of a currency is based on a Nations Economic Infrastructure and ability to produce and TRANSPORT PHYSICAL GOODS -
So you say "Paper has not intrinic value" No, It doesn't i totally agree. NOR DOES GOLD. It is a PIECE OF METAL.
However, the MAIN fact you continue to ignore, slander and lie about to avoid admitting is, if Money were directly invested into Economic Spurring infrasructure (powerplants, transit, water treatment etc. etc. etc.) it would have PHYSICAL LABOUR as intrinsic VALUE as opposed to a piece of METAL.
Has anyone in this thread advocated anything barack obama has done?
And a simple answer to your enlarged question : If we do not stop the system from collapsing we are all going to DIE and that includes YOU AND I, and even Planning4Crash, with all his planning.
Bythe way, no one advocated a "Debt based" currency either - It is called Sovereign Credit - Nationalizing the FED as part of the Treasury and using it to monetize credit (Which is an INVESTMENT for the GENERAL WELFARE OF THE PEOPLE, as prescribed in the preamble to the CONSTITUTION)
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you are very confused.... VERY CONFUSED - obviously you appear to think Tarpley, or the American System advocates the Government Seizing Private Markets --- UHM NO.
The system is simply the Government issuing currency by developing Infrastructure to progress humanity AND the PRIVATE SECTOR.
Rebuilding a Nation with Federal Credit because the PRIVATE Sector is BANKRUPT, and will be BANKRUPT for atleast a DECADE....
Now, in the interem - do you propose we let the entire economic system collapse and go back to the stone age, as we wait for the Private Sector (AS IF IT COULD) to "Revive" itself, as if somehow the bankrupt private sector could rebuild itself at current population levels without modern infrastructure...
The simple issue of the lack of Water and Energy is enough to disprove that (The Private Sector being able to rebuild the Nation with current population levels) hence, if we allow the system to collapse it will result in Malthusian Genocide, Which by the way, is EXACTLY what Prince Phillip, Al Gore, Rockefeller and the rest of the cronnies would LOVE to see Happen.
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You have just proved you haven't the slightest clue about how economics works. Labour is PRIOR to Capitalism, you cannot have CAPITAL without LABOUR - Hence the Gold Standard that De-Industralized the country in the 1830's, forced the Southerners to rely on SLAVE LABOUR to provide for their CAPITAL...... which by the way was entirely orchestrated by none other then Lord Palmerston of the United Kingdom.
Take your gold coins, hoard them, and when the economy collapses, you will have just that, GOLD COINS. Does gold have arms and legs? Can Gold produce physical goods that people in other nations wish to purchase? NO.
I have nothing against you hoarding coins, what i do have something against is a policy that would result in 4 to 5 billion people dying, which is a policy that you happen to be advocating with masses of ficticious data that has been disproven in this thread...... So take your Gold Coins, Hoard them and be happy - but do not push a policy that would result in massive death for your own selfish reasons as your insane quote in the first page of this threat higlighted in regards to "Letting the idiots who took mortgages out go bankrupt and kicking them out of their homes".
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=97109.0
-Revolt426
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http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=105934.40
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