I still want to get back to this post of yours. We disagree, but at least you try thus far of offer RATIONAL replies unlike the loony rants and personal vilifications offered as arguments by wankers like freddy, Yim and mentally disordered racist Massud. So, I'm still trying to settle down from my constant comings and goings to offer a rational reply best suited to your post. I will still do so. But for the moment I think we ought not to underemphasize the dysfunctions, including fratricidal violence, which occurred in our communities BEFORE the movements of the 1960s. W.E.B. Du Bois examined the issue of black crime in relation to oppression in THE PHILADELPHIA NEGRO, and in DUSK OF DAWN (1940), especially the chapter entitled "The Colored World Within." I might also point out that the crime rate has dropped since some time in 1990s, though it is still way out of control. But two things come to mind, one mentioned by Michael Moore and the other by Michelle Alexander. Moore noted in one of his films that the REPORTING of crime INCREASED in the corporate media (both "liberal " and "conservative ") at precisely the time that crime rates DECLINED! I wonder why. And in her marvelous book (which I'm trying to find time to re-read) entitled THE NEW JIM CROW, Michelle Alexander notes that the war on drugs really revved up when there was LESS drug trafficking. (In THE NEW JIM CROW she offers data to PROVE this, but I can't go over that right now). And while I'm at it we may as well note that while probably 90% of the people we see on TV in handcuffs for drug possession and sale are Black, whites (according to FBI & state law enforcement stats) use and sell drugs on scales proportionately equal or greater than do blacks or Hispanics. And probably the largest uptick in incarceration over the past 30 years is drug related. How then do we explain why there are so many black and brown bodies incarcerated but so few white ones? We must consider the effects of COINTELPRO undermining of viable black organizations and leaderhsip Finally, we have to consider what happened to the economy, and especially the industrial and manufacturing parts of the economy, in which blacks (at least in the private sector) were most likely to be employed. How did the economic dislocations affect the social lives of communities, and the interpersonal lives of families, friends, couples, and the general cultural life. And we must consider the widening class divide as well. In short, the racial caste system was NOT ended with the 1960s even though the legal status of Blacks changed. At any rate, I've not time to go into this more deeply at the moment. I will be at a community meeting in West Baltimore today to address many of these same issues
-Savant
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Since we're talking about police terror and our resistance and, predictably some are replying with talk about "black crime," I think you might benefit from examining the work of Frantz Fanon, in particular, THE WRETCHED OF THE EARTH. The brilliant black philosopher-psychi atrist offered some profound insights into the psychology of oppression, the self-destructive dysfunctions which arise from oppression, and the possibilities of ending both oppression and the dysfunctions through liberation struggle. It is a question of how human beings can transform themselves while transforming the social order.
-Savant
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LOL! I didn't notice this post by freddy the fool when I was last here. It's not worth noticing, but it is hilarious. This fool isn't even from the US, let alone my hometown of Baltimore; and some suspect that he's not even a Black Brit, but a white racist one. He's sticking his nose in my business, and tellin me to mind my own business. LOL! The Black struggle in America is my business, the current struggles in Bmore against police terror is my business. At least I'm WITH my people. He claims I have no pull. That fool doesn't know that I have enough pull to have some folk break both his ankles if I caught him in East Baltimore. LOL! He claims he knows his way around. Yeah, right. If he's not a white racist Britisher, the only thing he knows his way around is the geography of the racist white ass he kisses. He complains that I----and he forgets about 3,000 others---were protesting in front of City Hall when we were (he believes) supposed to be out stopping looters. But again, he's not HERE but I AM HERE! I've been at the community meetings, the town hall meetings in schools, churches and parks. It was the MASSES themselves--not me, and not "leaders "--who initiated the mass protests. The protests began in Sandtown community where Freddy Gray lived. These protests had been going on for DAYS before either the initial clashes with the police in Camden Yards the Saturday before Freddy's funeral, and before the riots that broke out the afternoon after his funeral. On the day of the Saturday clashes of some our youth with the pigs in Camden Yards, what had happened is that a small group of youth broke off from the main body of our demonstration at City Hall and marched into Camden Yards. And I doubt that there any plans for a clash even among those kids who marched to Camden Yards, though the friction did lead to a clash. Were THOUSANDS of us supposed disperse from City Hall to follow some kids to Camden Yards to prevent a riot that had not even been in the offing as of yet? On the day of Freddy Gray's funeral the following Monday, there were NO demonstrations. We decided to honor the requests of the Gray family that we not protest on that day. But the City dismissed kids from school on that day, without even the usual transportation being available. Maybe we should have had a demonstration shortly after the funeral and made sure that our youth were not left alone --angry (rightly so) and unorganized. But in the REAL WORLD--unlike the world of that British idiot freddy the fool--those involved in struggle don't have a crystal ball. We cannot anticipate every possible incident. And we protestors were not the ones who shut down schools. We're also not the ones who killed Freddy Gray. Moreover, those who've become organizers and leaders of the movement DID NOT START the demonstrations. The PEOPLE of Sandtown did. Nobody likes to give the Black masses credit for anything. But I admire the resilience of my people, especially that most dispossessed part of my people whom many of you, like our mayor and Obama calls thugs and criminals (while they kiss the a____ of the REAL thugs and criminals). I commend their spirit of rebellion--even the rebellious spirit of the rioter who, misguided they may be, nonetheless show more sense of dignity and righteous outrage than you bourgeois buffoons who denounce them
-Savant
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C'est vrai. Mais le peuples ici sont talking about this in meetings still happening in Black communities here. What's important is that the demand to address these issues of poverty and racism emerged among the people themselves BEFORE the "leaders " (including "leftists ") had a chance to weigh in on this. People in Sandtown (where Freddy Gray lived) were have been talking about issues of poverty, racism and police terror as being all of a piece. Of course, these poor and under educated people don't reference Fanon or Gramsci as I might, but they see this intuitively at least from their own experience. Hier, a un eglise noir some of us met to strategize how to organize our energies an keep things moving forward; and we talk about how we must address the issue of police terror in connection with issues of structural racism and economic exploitation and dispossession. Some of or Latino brothers and sisters were there; and so were some people from the American Indian Movement (AIM), and there were progressive whites who rallied with us. The pastor of the church straddling East and West Bmore downtown, a rather progressive black clergyman, emphasized that as this struggle continues, the powers-that-be (white, black and other) are going to try to divide us, and that we couldn't let that happen. He also pointed out that just as our latin, native American and white comrades are rallying to us in ways we've not in Bmore since the 1960s, we must be prepared to rally with them when pigs brutalize Latins, Native Americans, poor whites or progressive white and Latin activists. (But the reverend didn't call them pigs. LOL!) If I still believed in god I'd join that church or one like it. We're going to be in front of the courthouse every day as the trial of those killers of Freddy Gray goes on. We're going to set up groups to patrol the police, though not with guns as the Panthers did. We will have (as Bobby Seale suggested once) video cams. We also will begin educational initiatives so that the poor know what their rights are. That sort of thing has been largely missing since the demise of SNCC and the Panthers. The pastor indicated that as we formed patrols our non-Black allies are welcome, at least to be present. (Legally, you have a right to observe and photograph and record police activity. But there have been many instances in which police demanded--illegall y--that you hand over your cell camera or video cam. A number of Blacks seen recording have been physically attacked by police. A multiracial group of observers might make this more hazardous for the cops. Une etudiante de Johns Hopkins Universiite a dit hier: "I'm willing to be there with my own camera if I'm welcome. if the cops do anything I will say "Ok, officer. Arrest me. Attack the daughter of a Dean at Johns Hopkins University, and we will see if you can sweep it under the rug as you do when you brutalize black citizens.") We can win this fight!
-Savant
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Let me remind readers that Ingwe's post here is originally in reply to my argument--one which I certainly did not invent--that oppression breeds dysfunction, and that fratricidal violence in the black community (and other oppressed communities) is one manifestation of that dysfunction. (However, I also ought to remind the reader that my argument is also that police terror is a part of the same system of oppression which breeds the dysfunction I speak of). Note that there are two parts of Ingwe's reply: 1. That poverty, violent crime and other dysfunctions seem to be worse in inner cities now than in the 1950s & 60s even though racism was greater then than now. 2. that some form of "cultural rebellion" against traditional values --and I hope I'm not oversimplifying Ingwe's argument--has more to do with the dysfunction than does racism and oppression. When I return I will attempt to address both those main points. However, on the SECOND point I'm a little surprised that Ingwe hasn't considered that if anything a "cultural rebellion" happened DURING the 60s and early 70s rather than in the post-Movement years. When I return a part of my argument will be that something more along the lines of CULTURAL CORROSION or CORRUPTION has happened. And I will argue that SOME forms of racism declined--De Jure segregations, for example. But racism has morphed into new appearances, and we must consider the realities of economic deprivation rooted both in changes in the capitalist economy, and the interconnection of economic exploitation with newer forms of racism--or the NEW JIM CROW as Michelle Alexander terms it.
-Savant
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Even if the autopsy does show that Freddy Gray had been using drugs--weed seems to have been his preference--that would be completely irrelevant. Drugs didn't break his spine while he was in police custody. If anything, it is probably the fascist pig cops who have something to hide. And Ms. Mosby must, if only to stem the tide of black revolt, make at least a damn good effort to bring the killer cops to justice. If there is no justice in the courts, there maybe justice in the streets.
-Savant
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Unfortunately, the manner of your reply borders on, or even crosses the border into, an Argumentum ad Hominem (Tu quoque). That the atrocities of French police in the past have at times paralleled or excelled (depend on time and cirucmstances) American police atrocities does refute what he has said about American police abuses. And it seems to be a fact that killing of civilians by American police far exceeds the scale of most other countries, France included. It is also a fact that America incarcerates more of its citizens than do other countries. And in our practice of the death penalty--a relic of barbarism which many (I believe most) other countries have abandoned--our system of justice has not even refrained from executing the mentally ill or retarded. But interestingly enough, Angela Y. Davis was present in France at the time of the atrocities you speak of. And she did say that the behavior of the police against Algerians reminded her of police terror against Blacks in her native Alabama. However, France was at war with Algeria in order to put down the Algerian Revolution. No justification, of course. Especially since I think the Algerians had a RIGHT to rebel against French colonialism. But we Blacks were not involved in any armed insurrection during the 1960s. And the rising tide of police terror TODAY is not in response to any armed insurrection---tho ugh we may eventually see some kind of insurgency in the ghettoes if this police repression continues.
-Savant
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You may be on to something. I encountered one or two studies online which indicated that marriages between US Blacks and Blacks from other countries have been increasing at a greater rate than interracial marriages involving Blacks with non-Blacks. Of course, people in AA Forum are obsessed with IR relations, I acknowledge a person's right to love or marry whomever he or she pleases, but I find this OBSESSION with IR relations a bit much, and I suspect a tad bit pathological. I know that in my own family line I've more relatives married to connected to Caribbean folk and occasionally Africans than with whites or other non-Blacks. But there are a couple who are connected with whites.
-Savant
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You may be on to something. I encountered one or two studies online which indicated that marriages between US Blacks and Blacks from other countries have been increasing at a greater rate than interracial marriages involving Blacks with non-Blacks. Of course, people in AA Forum are obsessed with IR relations, I acknowledge a person's right to love or marry whomever he or she pleases, but I find this OBSESSION with IR relations a bit much, and I suspect a tad bit pathological. I know that in my own family line I've more relatives married to connected to Caribbean folk and occasionally Africans than with whites or other non-Blacks. But there are a couple who are connected with whites.
-Savant
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Freddy is a resentful, bitter man of low intelligence and virtually no social consciousness. Notice than he cannot address ISSUES, but he thinks he knows more about America, and even my hometown Baltimore than I do? I've been at community meetings (including this past Saturday at Unity Church), at demonstrations, town hall meetings, etc. But he supposedly knows more than I. And no matter how many times I point out his errors, including errors of basic facts, he keeps up his senseless drivel. He's simply too stupid to know that he's stupid. But at least I'm involved in a historical struggle. freddy is simply along for the ride, a passive object of history.
-Savant
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I'm dark skinned African American who has sometimes been taken to be African while abroad. It's usually my accent that gives it away. Bottom line is that I'm down with CONSCIOUS Black people. And as far as love is concerned, a warm and tender Black woman who's also intelligent and socially conscious is the best option of all.
-Savant
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