http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=105934.360
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=99961.80
You forgot the post the title of the article you just posted, here i'll do it for you: Excess Debt And Deflation = Depression^ I have been attempting to explain this throughout the entire thread!You also forgot to mention that Andrew Jackson's Gold based currency disintigrated the " Competeing " State issued currency, which needlessly bankrupted all people who held state issued notes ( I guess they were just too stupid and they deserve to have their currency destroyed right?) One more thing you forgot to mention is during the 19th Century the British Empire held a monopoly on Gold Reserves (and they still do till this day) and at a whim could expand or contract (MANIPULATE) the monetary supply. I would consider that worse then the so called "Speculation" Of the Second National Bank of the United States of which the Government had 100% Control over the printing presses via Congressional Vote and Treasury issuence of credit for that bank to even be able to print currency in the first place.lastly, that Depression was the worst Depression ever up until that point in U.S. history, and infact - the economy never really recovered (Particularly in the South) which paved the way to the Civil War due to further reliance on Slave Labor to produce raw materials for the plantation owners to capitalize off of (By the way, Andrew Jackson owned Slave Plantation!, isn't that ironic.... he was a Southern Democrat too.)
-Revolt246
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Quote from: lostdog2323 on June 16, 2009, 04:20:08 PM
Just because you say something is 'debunked' doesnt make it so. Instead of attacking me why dont you address the point that we are the empire now. Debunk that.
Pardon me, but do you understand
#1 Lincoln prevented Britain's Prime Minister Lord Palmerston from completely disintigrating the United States.
#2 Lincoln was ASSASSINATED after doing this.
#3 Lincoln's successor reversed his policies and was impeached.
#4 The fact that there is STILL an Empire only supports my argument that the Austrian school's "All regulation is tyrrany" Propaganda is indeed that, propaganda. My whole point in regards to regulation was that history has taught us that sociopaths will always be around - all we can do is prevent them from looting and pillaging our nation. Of course, Lincoln did destroy Lord Palmerston's plans for wrecking the United States with his Greenback system, railway and alliance with the Czar of Russia - why is there still Empire?.... Why is the sky blue?
It's just an absurd question. You think Lincoln can come back from the Grave and fight the British off again ? lol
-Revolt 246
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Quote from: aLLyOuRbAsE on June 16, 2009, 09:54:14 PM
ive read "road to serfdom", i thought it was a very honest book, there wasnt any ambiguity, in fact, before reading that book i was pretty much opposed to state provided welfare, but it now seems reasonable to me that a "safety net" be provided, so long as it was garunteed to everyone equally as individuals, and that it wasnt getting us into debt. i particularly found Hayeks comments on central planning to be very enlightening and i reccommend people read that book just to understand what central planning really is.
with regards to the argument about currencies that is dominating this thread now, i have no real dispute between either of the options presented, whether that be gold currency or fixed exchange rates, i think in both circumstances the practice of fractional reserve banking and usury in the creation of new money would not exist, so both would be a damn sight better than what weve got!
personally, i would like to see the use of competing currencies, where wealth was converted into currency directly, no middle man, with freedom of choice.
Of course i obviously agree, there has to be a form of saftey net for the very situation we are currently witnessing ( An incalculable Depresssion that will result in starvation and death if not addressed ). I would agree , it has to be reformed to prevent the massive abuse (Like illegal aliens not paying for it and getting the benefits anyway) , but to call medicaid/medicare "Socialism" is by definition a falsehood and is a big problem because calling a social net, "Socalism" or "Marxism" in this case narrows everyones views to the Preditory Capitalist System VS. the "Socialist" system when infact, you can of course have none of the above if you broaden your perspectives. I see the labeling of all Government activities as "Marxist Socialism" , which the mises website does in nearly all of their articles as a deadly threat to humanity.... which is why i attempt to highlight that "Marxist Socialism" is when the Government Seizes the Means of Production - not when the Government constitutionally provides for the General Welfare of the public. I know you understand this, so do not think i am attacking you here, i am merely highlighting it because i think it's very important.
In regards to both systems being the same, i'd certainly have to disagree with you there.... due to the fact that a fixed exchange rate system would allow the new currency to be pegged to current price levels to avoid the very deflation that an actual domestic gold coin barter standard would result in. That is the major issue here, an International Gold Standard can be pegged to current price levels, but a Domestic Gold Coin standard obviously cannot due to the impossibility of obtaining enough Gold to peg to current price levels..... In addition, a Domestic Gold Coin standard is the use of a commodity as Currency , which i've highlighted as not a "Storage Unit of Wealth" - but a means of exchange valued by a Nations net productive output per capita. So what you have here is using a volatile piece of metal (in the case of Gold) being used as a currency. This means gold mining drives currency levels as opposed to economic expansion - i believe doing this is a grave mistake and a also addressed this in my original post, as Mining for Gold really bears to resemblence to an actual economies expansion rate at all, while Infrastructure infact directly represents an economies expansion rate.
In regards to competeing currency (Specifically for private obligations) i'd also have to disagree , the reality of the situation is that this has indeed been attempted by none other than Andrew Jackson, and the result wiped out the perceived "Weaker" currency, and many families savings were wiped out along with it just because they held state issued notes and not gold convertable notes (Which later imploded the economy anyway)..... so i would also disagree that a competeing currency would help becuase the weaker currency would inevitably be dumped and wiped out. If there were a way to introduce competeing currency without this threat - i perhaps would not be opposed to it, but to my knowledge i simply cannot think of a way for a competeing currency to provide for the General Welfare Clause in any way shape or form.
-Revolt246
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http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=99961.80
As a re-occuring phenomina in the U.S., i would like to address this issue shortly.
This has been planned for years , and the secession is part of the plan. The plan is to Break the United States into pieces.
The Plan has been derived by Bankers and Royalty in London, The Netherlands and Saudi Arabia with their collective moles in Wallstreet.
This is repeatative issue that has once caused a Civil War, that is always orchestrated the SAME EXACT WAY, and i will explain how, obviously to some people's disliking but it has to be said regardless.
It always starts with the Country going back on the Gold Standard. There is no denying this if you wish to go throug the Nations history of Un-Correctable Depressions, each was caused by the Gold Standard besides our Current one, which took twice as long to create because it was designed to be a Globalized Meltdown based on Privatized Central Banks.
What a Gold Standard does in reality, is it puts a CAP on production and population levels..... Contrary to some myths, an economy is driven by physical production, and the private sector is driven by the Nations underlying infrastructure. For example, a very specific example because we are witnessing the very same thing that occured in the mid 1800s known as the Civil War, which was an attempt by Lord Palmerston on behalf of the British Empire to cut the United States in half.
This began with Andrew Jackson enstating a Domestic Gold Standard, Coins or Convertable notes to compete with the State issued currency. People began purchasing the Gold Notes and using them for transactions - this resulted in the disintigration of the State issued currency which bankrupted many people in the Nation. Eventually, the Gold Convertable Notes were over-lent and a bubble was formed..... Followed by Martin Van Buren, who established Independent Treasuries to make loans in the name of the free markets, this bubble expanded and exploded in 1837 resulting in the Great Panic of 1837, a Depression that lasted nearly a Decade.
The reality of this Depresion is, the Nation never recovered. What happened was, the Government - being bankrupt and on the Gold Standard, was unable to issue currency for PRODUCTIVE means. That means building roadways, bridges and other infrastructure required for production and trade to function. As a population GROWS, the infrastructure must be MODERNIZED, or the population will fall into poverty. If the Currency circulation levels do not match the population on a Gold Standard...- you get deflation.. which means it is extremely hard to obtain currency.
The South was hit very hard by this and was very much de-undustrialized for it's time........ This unfortunately lead to the South becoming Dependent on Slave Labour with the HELP of the British and Dutch who were shipping them in via the East India Company and other Dutch Ships.
Over the next 20+ years the Nation was on the Gold Standard, and never recovered..... more and more the South became dependent on Slave Labour to produce capital. The British eventually sent in Agents such as Confederate General Albert Pike and other infiltraitors on behalf of Lord Palmerston, who was ready to attack Lincoln's army on a whim if Robert E. Lee won certain battles. Lord Palmerston also made free trade agreements with the South to purchase low priced Cotton from Slave Labour without tariffs , which is the real reason why they began seceeding. They did not want a protective tariff because they were dependent on the Dutch and the British to function economically.
When Abraham Lincoln came to office, numerous states seceeded from the Union - this was going according to the British Plan to cut the Nation in Half. The Nation was 100% BANKRUPT and unable to fund the war, or build anything because the Gold Standard did not provide the necessary currency to expand the economy.
Lincoln took the Gold Standard down, and Revived the Greenback and issued them directly into Infrastructure projects. His projects were in the form of Science Driver economics, which was the Intercontinental Railway and Agriculture Science... These are essentially low or zero interest federal loans in which the Government provides currency to build something then recovers it when it is built.
As Lincoln began his projects, more states began seceeding from the Union under British lead agents and this became a tremendous problem. The British controlled confederacy attempted to assassinate Lincoln numerous times , Lincoln however had balls of steel and was not afraid at all. His biography is quite incredible.
Anyway, we all know what happened during the Civil War, but it is often unsaid that the entire war was orchestrated by the British Empire. Eventually, Czar Nicholas the Second of Russia sent his Navy to Block any BRITISH attempt ( yes, Russia has ALWAYS been our ALLY) to intervene in the Civil War.
After the war was won, Lincolns greenback had modest inflation because it was funded by the credit of the United States as opposed to borrowing from other Nations, HOWEVER - His Intercontinental Railway and other infrastructure/science driver investments paved the way for an economic boom.
The Railway in particular freed us from British Controlled Trade and i will explain the idea behind this. In the 19th Century, the British Empire was a MARITIME empire, meaning they operated by NAVAL POWER. There was no Nation on the planet that could match British Naval Power alone.......
This meant they controlled the NAVAL trade routes which the U.S. had been depending on prior to the railways completion.. and this was the primary reason Lincoln was assassinated.
His Intercontinental Railway allowed the United States, with it's own Sovereign Currency, to bypass British controlled trade routes with high speed , Nation Wide Transport. This obviously cut costs and sped transport up massively........ Things like this SPUR economies. Things like Hydro-Electric Dams, Bridges and Waterways in the 1930's SPUR economies.......
Without an underlying infrastructure, you cannot have a productive modernized economy with any decent living standards because you would end up on the local barter system.
Therefor, Lincoln's victory over the British during the Civil War was not of Matmatical economics, but of SCIENTIFIC ECONOMICS
So i would advocate everyone to be very weary, this is being setup on the model of the Civil War, our country has been De-industrialized by a Private Central Bank that can act beyond Congressional Appropriations and issues currency via loans to other banks rather then direct issuence into infrastructure like Lincolns Greenback Model.
Do not blame the Greenback for the currenct crisis, because we do not have a Greenback. We have a FEDERAL RESERVE BACK, which is nothing of the sort. Since the Death of Franklin Roosevent and the Death of JFK, Currency has not been issued via Federal Lending into infrastructure but rather printing and loaning from one private bank to other private banks to do whatever they want with.
A currencies value is determined by the Nations ability to produce and Transport goods that other nations wish to purchase. After the Intercontinental Railway was completed, as i said we had an economic boom. This was a direct result of that railway and economic policy. The current situation is, all of the private banks are BANKRUPT, so it is required that to preserve current population levels, the nations infrastructure be rebuilt and modernized to match the populations needs to produce and transport physical goods that other nations wish to purchase. When other nations purchase these goods, they sell their currency and purchase our currency to buy them, this makes our currency stronger.... Gold does not do the trick in these regards...
-Revolt 426
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