Revolt 426's extra words

From http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=105934.200

Let's recount, i never said a word about a Limit, regardless - Lincoln increased spending by 300% into productive infrastructureI never said a word about anything to do with a 1980 Gold Price.. (perhaps you are looking at another persons quote again)I said McKinley advocated a Gold Standard (And he advocated using Lincolns policies, as you highlighted partially with the Tariffs and building railways)I addressed the Panama Canal, which was not infrastructure on or for the United States but an act of Britsh backed imperialism.And privately funded railroads? where is this coming from? yea they exist - have you seen any MODERN RAILROADS LATELY? ..... how about ANY OTHER INFRASTRUCTURE?.Let's see who is wrong, you compared Abraham Lincoln to Teddy Roosevelt - two complete opposites that had nothing to do with each other (Roosevelt was a traitor, Lincoln actually saved the Union from collapsing) , and then you say Teddy Roosevelt was a Greenbacker because he expanded the monetary supply in 1907?... this means, what?. Because he expanded the monetary supply by issueing Greenbacks there still wasn't a Gold Standard (It was SUSPENDED TEMPORARILY).

Who is lying? huh?. who links to a blog for information about Presidents?. Have you even responded to 75% of the things i've written (instead of cherry picking what you could point and say "Ad Hominem" aka "You are a liar i have no counter argument from the Austrian school), or the video you said you didn't watch or ..... maybe i should just stop, you aren't really worth wasting time blathering about diversions, "Teddy Roosevelt was a Lincoln Nationalist" is that a joke?. Actually McKinley's policy was "We are going to fight through the Gold Standard" meaning, we are going to BUILD THINGS. So, infact 90% of the history you posted was nonsense including your pathetic attempt at attacking Stephen Zarlenga as opposed to actually debunking his refute, which (If anyone read it : http://monetary.org/refute.htm) they would see that Mengers theory makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.So go ahead, ad hominem, and populem, ad nauseum , strawman this to death.

Oh heavens, i am still ALSO waiting for the explanation to how the OUTSTANDING DEBT is going to magically correct when the monetary supply contracts.... i almost forgot about one of the major reasons a Gold Standard would cause genocide..........What happened to that?, wasn't on your cherry picking list like the video i used to highlight what i am talking about?.

-Revolt 426

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12517

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What caused that Depression? a reversal of Lincoln's policy of spending currency into productive infrastructure. And no, we've not been bankrupt (until mid 2007) since 1933. Even Ron Paul admits this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz7yBRihxSM

While McKinley may have advocated a Gold Standard, there is no doubt he was a Lincoln Nationalist - he wanted to build a railway to South America (Or Ibero America), Teddy Roosevelt came in and reversed that ideal and added a lot of kookery (In other regards , not economics).

I forgot about War Plan Red, (Although i concede it has nothing to do with economics).... This also occured after McKinley was killed, and we do know Lord Palmerston of Britain was responsible for the Confederacy seceeding..... War Plan Red actually led to Pearl Harbor. So we have Lincoln, 100% enemy of Britain, and Teddy Roosevelt 100% ALLY of Britain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red.

.....War Plan Red was created because Americans knew Britain was locked in a strategic alliance with Japan, the Anglo-Japanese Alliance of 1902. American planners thought that Britain’s imperial reach would bring it into conflict with the US. In 1935 War Plan Red was updated and specified which roads to use in the invasion. "The best practicable route to Vancouver is via Route 99" (Carlson, 2005). Further, in 1935 Americans planned to build three military airfields near the Canadian border and disguise them as civilian airports. "In February 1935, the War Department arranged a Congressional appropriation of $57 million dollars to build three border air bases for the purposes of pre-emptive surprise attacks on Canadian air fields" (Berlin Glasnost, 1992-2007). The airfields were to be kept secret but their existence were accidentally published on the front page of the New York Times on May 1, 1935.

Had James A Garfield AND McKinley (Who wanted to build railways to South America, and was a Lincoln nationalist greenbacker Republican) NOT been assassinated, that would not have even been a Depression, and McKinley's was succeeded by Teddy Roosevelt (Whom was the cousin of a British Intelligence officer) that re-instutued the Gold Standard (The opposite of what McKinley wanted) - however i am glad you brought this point up....

Since we have proven the privatized issuence of currency inevitably leads to chaos, you've actually highlighted the whole point in the Government issuence of currency, which is people have FAR MORE control over it than say, the Federal Reserve?.....

When an entity that issues currency can BYPASS Congressional appropriations, Executive signing and Treasury issuence of credit........ this leads to Weimar Germany, and Hitler. History repeats itself, it is good to not make the same mistakes over and over again.

-Revolt 426

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By the way, for those that do not understand, the Federal Reserve is not a Bank, it is a Banking System (A parasitical one) therefor, putting the system into bankruptcy.

Do you think we can tell China "We aren't paying our debt, screw you" and avoid a war?. We are dealing with a Global Collapse of the entire world monetary system and we have the same clowns with the same non existent arguments .....

Bankruptcy Reorganization is the only Constitutional way to destroy all derivatives (You know, the 1.5 Quadrillion $ Worth that is destroying the entire planet) , once the FED system is ridded of the Derivative mess, you can go ahead and Nationalize it into the Treasury department and have a sovereign currency...

Ammended * It is also under bankruptcy judge supervision

-Revolt 426

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By the way, it is noteworthy to mention Lincoln did the exact opposite in regards to foreign relations , and Teddy Roosevelt had British Traitors all over his immediate family.

Actually, without Lincoln allying with the Czar of Russia, the Civil War would have destroyed the United States.

Teddy Roosevelt was put in to destroy relations with certain countries to pave the way for WWI

If you read any of the posts in this thead, you would know that there is indeed a sound alternative to the Austrian method and the status quo, you just choose to ignore it... which is unfortunate but atleast you acknowledge the resultant would be an incalculable amount of foreclosers and debt defaults of various kinds.

With a greenback system you are able to
A) issue currency without a CAP into productive means which does not cause inflation. (What causes inflation is when you allow the printing of currency into UN-Productive means and the Net Production levels fall below the monetary supply)

B) There will have to be a Government Intervention to keep people in their homes regardless of any reform because this is the greatest economic collapse in the history of man kind due to it's globalized unique nature and massive population levels to sustain.

C) Rebuild the Nations infrastructure which is the only thing that would allow a recovery in the first place.

-Revolt 426

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The problem is that "fiscal stimulus" usually means borrowing the money in question before "spending" it. This borrowing aspect is the literal opposite of what I'm proposing:

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http://www.wealthmoney.org/happen.html

What Would Happen?If the American Transportation Act were passed and became effective January 1, 2006, you would no longer pay tax on gasoline, diesel or other fuels. You would pay no tax on oil products, no tollway fees, no axle taxes, license fees, or other taxes normally collected to pay for roads and bridges. Taxes to build and maintain roads and bridges would no longer be collected. No more bonding would be necessary for road & bridge construction and maintenance. Property taxes would be lower. All new money would now be created and exchanged into circulation as a Wealth (debt-free) payment for the labor and raw resources used in combination to build and maintain our roads and bridges. These are a Wealth produced that benefit ALL citizens equally. This was the principle behind the 'monetizing' of gold and silver bullion Free as a Wealth to the people who produced it and a debt-free medium of exchange to ALL. The government would hold the roads and bridges in "trust" for the people who would thereafter use them free-of-charge with no taxation or fees of any kind. The new money would represent the Wealth of our Nation (peoples' labor and raw sources) just like gold certificates once represented the Wealth metal money produced by the people and deposited with the Treasury. The certificate represented the production and was as good as the Wealth (gold or silver) it represented.

[Continued...]----------------------------------There's a fundamental difference between monetizing debt (as Keynesian borrow-and-spenders would have us do) and monetizing wealth.

Economic Reform?If they are not spent productively you get an economic breakdown like we are currently seeing, this can lead to inflation.The point of spending them into productivity is that productivity (Labor) is required for Capitalism to exist.Our current workforce is a "Service Economy" meaning, there is virtually no production left due to outsourcing to slave wage nations via "Free Trade" agreements.....You cannot subsitute production with services, because it leads to the current situation. I hope that answers the question.

-Revolt 426

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http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=105934.320

only in dreamland, can you prosecute people for fraud after they collapse the entire economic system. My argument "Hinges" on what U.S. History has shown us, your argument has no historical base whatsoever. The delusional fantasy that "the threat of proseuction" Is going to stop a sociopath from creating a situation like this is histerical.. only certain regulations (Like the regulation that prohibited banks from speculating with deposit money that you oppose) would stop the actual collapse. You would prefer to wait for the collapse, and then prosecute them after the entire economy is wiped out. And since i know there is someone in the thread that is going to equate what i just said to "thought crimes" , firstly i never said all regulation was good - secondly, Derivatives being private, off the book contracts is the REASON why this has occured... if there was a regulation on financial speculations, this could not possibly have occured.

Congress had quite a difficult time getting a bailout bill through (IT failed the first time) for 750 Billion dollars after they were lied to by Bernanke who said the entire planet would meltdown in 24 hours and we would have martial law (This would not happen without the FED)........ the remainder of bailout money has actually been issued by BYPASSING Congress, and if you don't understand that 13 Trillion is ALOT more then 750 Billion, then you should go do some math homework. If you recall, the first bailout vote had so many phone calls opposing it that it failed...........

And last i checked, Ron Paul's audit the fed bill has 190 co-sponsers? are they all evil?.

Just another argument made without thinking......... They should be prosecuted as fraud AND REGULATED to prevent this situation from occuring AGAIN.

-Revolt 426

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www.secretofoz.com

Revolt 426 on Keynes

From http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=125165&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20



A) Keynes was a Fascist - meaning, Keynsian is NOT Deficit spending into infrastructure, but deficit spending into BANKS (At interest), FDR for instance - fought with Keynes from 1942-1944 at Bretton Woods, because Keynes demanded a one world currency called the "Bancor" and Roosevelt wanted a Credit System (A system where money is issued INTO productive infrastructure

B) A Physical Economy is based on Scientific Advancement, the railway example in the essay explains this - without the modernization of Lincon's Railway this Nation would have gone bankrupt. The Railway Modernizations did numerous things, including (economically) connecting the inner U.S. and nulling the need for NAVAL shipping (which was far slower and more costly, and naval routes were controlled by the British Empire at the time).

I couldn't AGREE with you more, which is why i posted the History of our Nation (The United States if you happen to live elsewhere) which is the OPPOSITE of the Austrian School. The re-writing of History has been a tremendous burden on truth seekers.

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http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=125165&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40

Here debunk this : Suppose we institute a Gold Standard - this is obviously going to CONTRACT the monetary supply of the Nation is it not? So, what do the millions upon millions of people who owe Mortgages, Commercial Loans, Installment Loans etc... going to do, when instead of getting 500 dollars a week pay - they get 50?. It is against contractual law to adjust a mortgage term! God Forbid we keep people in their homes?!? this is unacceptable to the Von Mises Community and a strawman argument (LAUGH) You want to be a debt slave for the (Short) remainder of your life (If this policy is instituted), have fun.

-Revolt 426

Uhm, if you wish to return to the STONE AGE, and reverse the progress of civilization, i guess you are right. We can indeed go back to the barter system, in any case - i highlighted major problems with implimenting Austrian policies, the major one being the Gold Standard and i still haven't seen an answer as to how we are not going to be debt slaves for eternity if one was implimented (If we aren't all killed first). As for your historical accounts - http://monetary.org/refute.htm

-Revolt 426


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Quote:

I think you take metaphors a little too seriously. The Austrian School simply says let prices do what they do best, in the context of government enforcement of property rights and contracts. Austrians would also say that the market isn't perfect, but would then ask if the government solution is better than the problem.

No, i don't take them too seriously as virtually all Austrian's argue exactly what i have posted, and Virtually all of them argue if their insane guidelines are met, the market will "Magically" be "Sound" - that is to say, witout ANY historic evidence since their system has NEVER been implimented!.

Quote:

I'm sorry, but deregulation did not "create this crisis". The fact of the matter is that government regulations, especially in times of rapid technological change and innovation, cannot keep up. In other words, our system of creating law is very slow and reactionary.

So you are saying, Derivative deregulation has not assisted in creating a 1.5 Quadrillion dollar bubble of ficticious finance capital? this is absurd.

Quote:

False. The mortgage-backed security, a derivative, has been around since the late 70's.

False, Reagan legalized Derivatives in 1982 and the Glass Steagall act allowed Commercial banks to speculate, hence creating MEGA , too large to fail banks. This wasn't a major issue , until Glass / Steagall was repealed, but regardless - Derivatives (Paper on Debt Securities) are the cause of this entire crisis in addition the productive % of our laborforce collapsing (due to a 40+ year neglect of our Physical Economic Infrastructure. Regardless of when "Mortgage Backed Securities" were created, Derivatives (And their De-Regulation) caused the bubble.

Quote:

I've said it once, and I will say again - The U.S. Court of Appeals ruled that the Office of the Comptroller of Currency was correct in determining that Glass-Steagall did not apply to the underwriting of asset-backed securities by commerical banks. This occurred in the mid-80's.

Yea as i mentioned above, this was the REAGAN Administration , and when the Act was finally repealed, Commercial banks got involved in CREATING and TRADING them which is now resulting in a massive debt bubble preventing them from lending (issueing credit) into production, which is why our economy is collapsing - because we don't produce anything anymore.

Quote:

You have got to be kidding me! Redlining is one of the practices that helped created massive suburban sprawl and has lead this nation to its dependence on fossil fuels. And what exactly do you mean by "improve the population"? That doesn't really make sense.

Uhm, i was obviously arguing against the fact that banks are able to open up branches in certain communities , and NOT issue any CREDIT to them just because they wish for these communities to remain undeveloped........ your diversion of the argument to "Fossil fuels" doesn't really make sense.

-Revolt 426

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Quote:

No, I am saying that there are a number of forces at work here, not just deregulation. It is a combination of bad regulation in some areas, deregulation in others, our federal government's desire to subsidize mortgage debt - off the books through Fannie and Freddie, and the idiotic investment firms, pension funds, hedge funds ect, who thought they could buy up all of this crap with a huge risk premium, while assuming no risk. Besides, If it is so clear that deregulation is the cause, why did it take almost 20 years for this problem to come about? What other factors changed in the 90s and 2000s that might have had a larger impact on this crisis? Its important to ask these questions before just making a huge post on how deregulation is the problem.

I am blaiming De-Regulation of the DERIVATIVE market, not "De-Regulation in General" , as anyone can see by the Original Post. Regardless of the jargon you have just posted that has absolutely nothing to do with the crisis, if A) Reagan did not legalize the creation and trading of Derivative's and B) The Glass Steagall Act were not repealed, there would be no Derivatives (Which are utterly useless Debt based financial securities that provide nothing for a real economy) , let alone Commercial Bank exposore to these derivatives........ which consiquently is restricting them from issueing credit into productive industry due to the crushing Derivative debt's.

Why did it take so long? Glass/Steagall was repealed in 1999 - that is a decade....... in addition, the economy has been Globalized. China is holding a massive amount of our debt, so as we securitized this debt based garbage, China took on the bill to allow us to substitute bubble based debt securities for real productivity.

In any case, the point is made that the Austrian school is against ALL regulations, which is a 100% absurd stance to take and which is the reason why i attacked them in this scenerio.

Quote:

Btw, Why didn't our government replace Glass-Steagall with new legislation during the 20 or years between the U.S. Court of Appeals ruling, and 2007?

Ahem, they repealed it in 1999 - how could they replace it before it was repealed?. The Glass Steagall act prohibited Commercial Banks from speculating with depositor currency. Repealing this opened the gateway to mega-bank consolidations that created "Too large to fail institutions" due to the very Derivative contracts that are interlinking them right now.

Quote:

Of course you will ignore the origins of the mortgage-backed security when it makes your argument against the Austrian school look bad. The Austrian school is very critical of government involvement in the economy. Ginnie Mae, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac, all created by the federal government, invented these securities, created the market for them, and subsidized mortgage debt to the tune of trillions of dollars. Yet, you somehow find a way to forget about this when writing about the current financial crisis? That is a head-scratcher for sure.

And you ignore the fact that Freddie and Fannie had to be PRIVATIZED for them to get involved in this securitizing of debt madness, while saying the "Governmnet" involvement in the economy was the reason. That is a had scratcher beyond the irrelivant origins of the "Mortgage Backed Security".

Quote:

So to sum up, deregulation of the financial industry is a problem. But it is only one part of a much larger problem. Your essay fails to see the entire picture.

No my essay highlights the was currency is issued is ALSO the problem, but you have obviously ignored that entire part of the essay and nit picked the De-Regulation part. Currently, the FED prints currency without labor, but with a promise for labor in the future. A Sound system would require each unit of currency upon entering circulation be monetized in EXCHANGE for labor, in the form of production expanding infrastructure. To monetize wealth is to monetize labor, not print currency and loan it to a bank at interest which allows the FED to suck currency out of the economy.

-Revolt 426

Revolt 426's Words shown in 2012

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So AMD, One last question before we end another brilliant converstaion, just out of curiousity........ is GeoLiberterian a Fascist too, or is he a Socio Stazi? Or a Zio Nazi?

Just asking because he and i essentially believe in the same EXACT economic fundamentals . Is Geo's policy of infrastructure investment fascism? socialism?

Or is just a policy you disagree with and decide to make up an absurd name for like dozens of other posters ideals? Oh but you do not attack him, you only attack certain people, why i have no idea.

By the way, if you would like the real reason why FDR had to put the FED into bankrupty and de-couple it from gold, here is a teriffic quote that sums the whole situation up:

"My investigation convinced me that during the last quarter of a century the average production of gold has been falling off considerably. The gold mines of the world are practically exhausted. There is only about $11,000,000,000 in gold in the world, with the United States owning a little more than four billions. We have more than $100,000,000,000 in debts payable in gold of the present weight and fineness. . . As a practical proposition these contracts cannot be collected in gold for the obvious reason that the gold supply of the entire world is not sufficient to make payment."

-- Congressional Record, Congressman Dies, March 15, 1933.

Is that rubber glue bs? whatever that means, in your dictionary of illiteracy

-Revolt 426

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I would also point to the masses of disinformation about Rothschild that are posted on the net, such as his family was started by Mayar Rothschild, who was a poor jew from the ghetto *LOL*.

The Rothschild family has a Bloodline that dates back to the Roman Empire and the Oligarchs of Venice.

I am sure you are aware of much of the nonsense that is available on the Internet.

BTW in actuality - i would prefer a Lincoln Economic approach over FDR however when Lincoln was elected President our country was not in the "Great Depression". They are quite similar in actuallity other then the FED being there, but as i said, FDR Put the FED into bankruptcy and all decisions were made by a Bankruptcy Court hence allowing him to monetize federal credit and open windows to the actual economy thereby bypassing the Commercial Banks that were hoarding cash, just as they are now.

-Revolt 426

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http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=83352.0

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=84736.0

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Like i said - there is conflicting information about Pearl Harbor.

I didn't say i knew one way or another.

As for his plan - you certainly were not alive in the 1930's, and i respectfully disagree with you.

Certain aspects of his plan certainly did fail
Cetain aspects of his plan worked rather well actually

I've read just about all material possible for both sides of the arugment and i am entitled to my opinion. You can quote the entire 1933 Congressional Records , i've already read most of them (Yes McThadden too).

When JP Morgan and a group of bankers ( A Group of Fascists) attempt to assassinate and overthrow a president, then that president goes to war with Fascists, i find it hard to believe the President IS a Fascist.

The population, (Who were not as stupid back then) elected Roosevelt 4 times, more then any other President in History.

There is MASSIVE disinformation about him on the net.

however - i see your points and i agree there were certain policies that were detrimental, what most do not understand is the New Deal was partially experimental. It had never been done before on such a large scale, it was a mimic of Abraham Lincolns Economic Policies with some Social aspects and some other aspects.

The plan however as a whole, did NOT fail - the argument that World War 2 saved the economy is the biggest failure i've ever heard. We've been at war numerous times in this country and it has never brought us out of a Depression nor brought us prosperity.

Some aspects of the plan did prolong the Depression, but i dont judge FDR by the results of his failed policies i judge him by his intention and overall effect.

The Fundamental policies FDR used that i agree with are:

#1 Putting the FED into bankruptcy , because it had issued 100 billion dollars in Gold Convertable notes during the prior 2 administrations and only had 4 Billion in their Reserves - That is called being insolvent and the law says when a Bank goes insolvent you put it into bankruptcy. In our current situation infact, if we do not put the FED and entire system into bankruptcy the Derivative bubble will destroy civilization.

#2 Using the Bankrupt FED to monetize Federal Credit for use in Infrastructure investments - Lincoln always said Labour is prior and superior to capital. That means each dollar monetized for infrastructure had labour attached to it - that gives a currency real value , not a piece of metal.

#3 The Bretton Woods System, Fixed Exchange Rate system that prevented a single economic bubble from occuring from 1944-1971. The dollar was anchored by gold thus FIXING all exchange rates. This also prevents Imperialist Currency Speculators from driving down third world currencies, or "Shorting" them.

He also enstated Social Security, why? because Old people who were robbed of their life savings (like today!) were broke and starving to death......... Now, i am not a socialist but i can UNDERSTAND WHY he did something like that.

Things i disagree with about FDR:
1# Price fixing in the Agriculture Markets to stop deflation which failed.

2# his attempt to "Pack" the Supreme Court (Although i again realize, the Supreme court was full of traitors from the prior THREE administrations) i am still against that idea.


As for the actual conduct of World War 2, I wasn't in the Whitehouse nor alive at the time - and last i heard we won. There is too much disinformation on the internet and real information in books so i dont go ahead and "GOOGLE" FDR and think i know everything about him. The same goes for numerous other Presidents and policitians.

Generally, the only people who vehemently oppose FDR are Austrians, a school that i could not disagree any more with when it comes to Economics.

If you want to crucify me for having similar views about FDR to that of Webster Tarpley, then go Crucify him also. He is actually, a Historian... that is his JOB, that has been his Job for most of his life. He Documents history, and i happen to agree with alot of what he says.

-Revolt 426

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Druglibrary.org eh?

People need to learn that there is disinformation on the internet. And debate me on FDR's policies if you are so sure of yourself, go list them one by one.

You are posting this sourceless nonsense when infact, FDR put the bankers into banktuptcy reorganization and they didn't like it.

After the first assassination attempt on him prior to his inuaguration that failed, .... They attemped a fascist coup de tat, that everybody knows about via smeldy butler and the Dickenstein McCormick commissions.

You are posting distorted history, that is a fact. What do you call socialism?

Social Security? well , that was enacted because elderly people were starving to death.

Food Stamps?

Building infrastructure to prevent a thermodynamic meltdown of the nation and martial law via federal lending?.

Regulating and prosecuting the speculators that caused the Depression including cheif architect, Andrew Mellon.


If you think that is Socialism, you dont know what Socialism is.

-Revolt 426

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REALITY: A select few people in this forum are completely delusional and think they can grasp history by using the CIA RUN GOOGLE SEARCH ENGINE, Including the person who has an obsessive fettish with lambasting FDR when he hasn't the SLIGHEST CLUE what FDR actually did, which is avert a TOTAL ECONOMIC COLLAPSE, which means MARTIAL LAW and the END OF THE UNITED STATES. So, now as we FACE A FAR GREATER DISASTER, 3 Famous People in American History have been SLANDERED to prevent people from LOOKING at what they ACTUALLY DID, including Alexander Hamilton, Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Roosevelt, who ALL USED THE SAME ECONOMIC POLICY.. So you have some kind of Anti-FDR Fettish based on LIES, the very same LIES that presume Andrew Jackson was a HERO when infact he wiped out the US economy and paved the way for the Civil War, the Very same LIES that accuse Hamilton of being a British Traitor, the Very same LIES that slander LINCOLN.

If you are unable to do anything other then copy/paste horse shit, then i think people will realize this.

There is HOARDS of disinformation all over the internet, and consiquently we have COPY/PASTER researchers whom haven't the slightest IDEA what they are yapping about, since they are copy/pasting SOURCELESS OR PROPAGATED information. In particular AMITY SHLAES, a character from the CFR and American Enterprise Institute

REALITY:
SOCIALISM: When the Government SEIZES MEANS OF PRODUCTION

REALITY:
FDR NEVER DID THAT

REALITY:
The ALTERNATIVE to the TRADING WITH THE ENEMY ACT was the COLLAPSE OF THE UNITED STATES. The FEDERAL RESERVE, ON THE GOLD STANDARD, issued 100 BILLION dollars in Gold Convertable Notes with 4 Billion in Gold. There was a RUN ON THE FED SYSTEM, People were HOARDING GOLD, and it HAD TO BE PUT INTO BANKRUPTCY and DECOUPLED FROM GOLD;

Quote
public right to know. Read the following Congressional quote:

"My investigation convinced me that during the last quarter of a century the average production of gold has been falling off considerably. The gold mines of the world are practically exhausted. There is only about $11,000,000,000 in gold in the world, with the United States owning a little more than four billions. We have more than $100,000,000,000 in debts payable in gold of the present weight and fineness. . . As a practical proposition these contracts cannot be collected in gold for the obvious reason that the gold supply of the entire world is not sufficient to make payment."

-- Congressional Record, Congressman Dies, March 15, 1933.


REALITY:
FDR HAD NO INVOLVENMENT IN PEARL HARBOR, which was orchestrated by the BRITISH and MOLES in the NAVY.

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=88303

Webster G. Tarpley Debunks Pearl Harbor Myths (And British Spy Ring EXPOSED)


REALITY
AN ECONOMY cannot FUNCTION without INFRASTRUCTURE (Without a ROAD you cannot TRANSPORT goods, WITHOUT POWER you cannot have a FACTORY).
FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT put ALL INSOLVENT BANKS into BANKRUPTCY after his FIRST DAY IN OFFICE, including the FEDERAL RESERVE and USED IT to monetize FEDERAL LOANS to rebuild the NATIONS INFRASTRUCTURE, which had been DESTROYED from 1901 to 1932.

Example; The Tennesse Valley Authority provided power to rural farms when the PRIVATE SECTOR WAS BANKRUPT, and RE-INDUSTRIALIZED the AREA.

REALITY:
The AMERICAN LIBERTY LEAGUE, Funded by JP Morgan, The DuPonts, The Rockefellers and the gang, attempted to assassinate and OVERTHROW FDR.

Link WITH SOURCES
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2006/3332morgan_coup_plot.html

The Morgan Fascist Coup Plot
and How FDR Defeated It


REALITY:
FDR Argued with Churchill over British Imperialism on numerous occasions, here is ONE witnessed by FDR's SON ELLIOT ROOSEVELT;
http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2007/2007_1-9/2007_1-9/2007-7/pdf/7-8_707_feat-2.pdf

REALITY:
The American Liberty League , EXPOSED BY SMEDLY BUTLER quite obviously did NOT COOPERATE with FDR, considering they tried to KILL HIM.

LINK WITH SOURCES:
http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/53/all-both.html

Lurking in the background behind the plot to oust FDR was the American Liberty League, a pro-business think-tank and ultra-right wing lobby group. Its treasurer was Jerry MacGuire’s boss, Grayson Murphy, a leading J.P. Morgan broker. One of its top donors was Robert Clark, who also tried to recruit General Smedley Butler into the conspiracy to oust President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

General Butler testified to the MacCormack-Dickstein Committee that when he asked whether anything was “stirring” with regards to Jerry MacGuire’s wealthy backers’ plans for a “superorganization” to coordinate the coup against FDR, MacGuire predicted the American Liberty League’s emergence, saying: “Yes, you watch; in two or three weeks you will see it come out in the paper. There will be big fellows in it. This is to be the background of it.”

-Revolt 426

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Some of FDR's ACTUAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS, as opposed to the NONSENSE in this thread.

http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2006/2006_10-19/2006-11/pdf/48-59_611_eco.pdf

The RFC financed (NOT SPENDING, LENDING) many other crucial infrastructure-public works programs. For example:

• It lent $145 million to 632 levee and irrigation districts in Illinois, Missouri, Florida, Mississippi, Colorado, California, and Texas, to enable these districts to remain solvent, and in many cases to construct water-management and floodcontrol projects.

• It disbursed $26 million to Chicago teachers, who had not been paid in nine months. This kept the schools open.

• It lent $209 million to construct the 244-mile Colorado River Aqueduct which conducts water from the Colorado River, obtained from Hoover Dam storage, across the mountains to Los Angeles, San Diego, and 26 smaller communities
in Southern California. Today, this aqueduct is the source for
much of the water supply of Los Angeles, America’s secondlargest
city.

• It lent $13 million to build a bridge over the Mississippi River at New Orleans.

• It lent $78 million to build the famous 1.5-mile San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge.

• It lent $1.9 million to Utica, N.Y., to build a waterworks system.

• It lent $35 million to the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission to build a 160-mile toll highway from Pittsburgh to Harrisburg, entailing the world’s deepest highway cut.

• It lent $8.1 million to build Knickerbocker Village, a low-rent housing development in New York City.

• It lent $5 million to construct a series of dams and canals along the upper Rio Grande River near Albuquerque, NewMexico.

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US Mint Runs Out Of Silver And Gold American eagle

http://christianinfobomb.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19181

__________________________

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=97109.40

By the way, the addition tidbit, which i call a BOLD FACE LIE - by inserting the paradigm of "IT's either the Bailout, or Austrian school" is a falsehood in itself, because the methodology Tarpley is suggesting has NOTHING TO DO WITH A BAILOUT WHATSOEVER.

You refuse to acknowledge that there is anything in between "Bailout" and "Austrian School" - when there is this system that the United States was FOUNDED on, which prevented the United States from going bankrupt via WAR DEBTS and simoultaniously built the Nation.

The Bailout has not been advocated by ANYONE here, including Tarpley.

SO infact, you are setting up your own "It's the bailout or Austrian school" Paradigm, and in addition you are insulting the United States, not Webster Tarpley.

It would also do you good to look up what the word "Socalism" Means, which is when the Government SEIZES MARKETS, which no one has even SUGGESTED here.

-Revolt 426

______________________________


You fail to understand the difference between spending and lending.

A Credit system is Low interest rate federal LENDING to rebuild the Nation , so an example of a successful policy in regards to this similar to the Intercontinental Railway and TVA would be a Mag Lev as i mentioned.

You issue a contract that is BIDDED on by a multitude of companies with the ability to do something of this nature (Machine Tool Workers) and you LOAN them low interest sovereign credit (LENDING) to the tune of maybe 1% interest and lower.....

Now, in regards to the "Power to Print Money" the American System is run via Congress Approprations of Lending and Treasury Issuence of Credit.

So, the nation would be UNABLE to print money without labour being involved because all of the money printed would be directly invested into infrastructure projects, which directly represent the economy and population as opposed to gold.

In regards to "Socialism" , this is another false paradigm that was created by the powers that be and that is parroted by Austrians (I am not attacking you here), the Government building of Railways, Power plants and Water Treatment facilities is NOT Socialism.

Socialism (As opposed to what we have today, which is the fascist corporatist state) is when the Government Seizes Markets. AN example of actual socialism is Hugo Chavez seizing all of the oil companies in Venezuella.

The American System does no such thing - there is no preventative measures that restrict the private sector from doing what they please in regards to building infrastructure. But the reality of the situation is, as i have said, the Private Sector is bankrupt , unwilling and unable to build the basic neccessaties for an economy to function - so Federal Lending would be the only solution to prevent a thermo dynamic collapse (Meaning, the modern civilized economy would cease to function) of the Nation.

-Revolt 426

_________________________________________


And, again - any market without any regulation is NOT FREE.

You backtrack and re-write your arguments so often it's impossible to respond to you.

So, what about the Panic of 1837? , i believe it is consistant with Austrian economics for the most part. Unless you are one of those nuts that believe that "EVERYTHING HAS TO BE IN PLACE" for the "Free Markets" to function, and if even one aspect of the economy is not advocated by Dr. Von Mises it wont work, in that case - you've already proven yourself to be irrational.

In any case, i really don't have time to argue with someone who constantly changes the subject.

The system is not bankrupt and can support humanity, but the system is bankrupt and cannot support humanity.

Can you say DOUBLE SPEAK?.

-Revolt 426

Kurt Nimmo on Economics

http://www.infowars.com/marxist-wealth-distribution-for-the-bankers/

Note by Me: Nimmo issues the problem, but not the solution. He believes in Austrian Economics without promoting the truth that debt free money into building up infrastructure can help the country. Doing nothing doesn't cut it especially in a new century. He can talk about theivery all he wants, but getting money from Wall Street theives and sending it to the people who got their money stolen from is hardly stealing. Social Security (or the trust fund system) isn't a total failure at all. It's just that extremists want to gut it or get rid of it. Not to mention that the gold standard is votalite for numerous reasons. Even mainstream economists admit to this. It seems like the economic populist movement is growing and we're not following Mises nor Keynes either. Keynes was an eugenicist.

By Timothy

There are links showing alternative views on economics. They include:

http://libertyrevival.wordpress.com/2010/01/18/ron-paul-is-acceptable/

http://truthseeker2473.blogspot.com/2010/03/revolt-426-on-economics-and-history.html

http://truthseeker2473.blogspot.com/2010/03/revolt-426-on-economy.html


http://www.eugenics-watch.com/eugbook/euod_ch3.html

http://tarpley.net/2010/03/01/must-the-us-collapse/#more-1477

http://www.redmoonrising.com/AmericanBabylon/Part5.htm
http://truthseeker2473.blogspot.com/2010/04/revolt-426-on-keynes.html

http://truthseeker2473.blogspot.com/2010/03/left-vs-right-is-not-only-false.html

http://truthseeker2473.blogspot.com/2010/03/economic-information-in-march-of-2010.html

http://truthseeker2473.blogspot.com/2010/03/flying-dutch-on-helegian-dialetic-of.html
http://www.larouchepub.com/pr_lar/2008/lar_pac/080314lar_on_keynes.html

Economic News

FlyingDutch wrote:
I'm not done yet, i will respond on Revolt tomorrow!
It's a very interresting thread indeed!!Yeah, economics can be explained much simplers then most economist do, they make it hazy and many work for an agenda, so keep you in the dark.




They would have you believe it was so difficult so their "Elitist" schooled economists can run everything. The reality is , Economics really do not have much to do with Mathametics other than reflections of what is currently occuring. The emphasis is on Science and they supress Science in all aspects of society.

-Revolt 426


________________


V. Conclusion

If one Austrian School of Economics follower were to read this entire critique/arguement , i am quite sure at the very least they would have questions about their own school of economics. Even while they question their own teachings, many will draw upon strawman arguments, the usual ones being "That's Socialism" , "Centralized Power" , "Government is the enemy" , "Regulation is the enemy" , "The Free markets would regulate themselves and build infrastructure"...... These arguments are nothing more then a poor, brainwashed individual , clinging to the Von Mises theories that he/she thought were the truth and cannot handle letting go. This is the precise reason why many concerned people now refer to the Austrian School as a Cult. A Cult of people who are unwilling to compromise, listen or think about any monetary reform other then that of Dr. Von Mises and/or Murray Rothbard.


If you are already beginning to question the Austrian School, Please try to imagine someone educated in Monetary Science listening to absurd arguments on a daily basis, that he/she knows will not work - attempting to highlight the errors and being attacked by a herd of Von Mises readers?. That is my situation, along with a few others on this Forum. We truly care about this Nation, and we know the Austrian School's foundations are 100% lies (Being the Utopian Self Regulating Market, The Insistence that Gold MUST be a Currency, The argument that monetary supply contractions are "meaningless" , the argument that Gold gives currency value as opposed to it's underlying economy, the argument that the Government is too "Stupid" to do anything). All of these arguments have been 100% DEBUNKED in this paper - yet i am positive this thread will get responses to very tune i have just mentioned, in the form of "The laws of supply and demand will determine everything" , or anything short of using Gold as a currency is "Robbery". If This were true, your FIAT dollars would not be able to purchase Gold, hence another strawman argument.

So before replying to this with an attack, i would suggest re-reading it , then re-reading it again. If you still don't understand it, you have every right in the world to cling to your Austrian Teachings - but know in your heart they are not going to work and should they be instated they will do nothing but ACCELERATE the World Wide Economic Collapse, a Collapse greater then the Lombard Banking Collapse of the 14th Century which was later dubbed "The New Dark Age" , in which 1/3rd of Europe was wiped out and the Bubonic Plague emerged.

This has happened before, and unfortunately History repeats itself, and many do not learn from History because they do not read it. They instead, prefer the easy way to learn history - by listening to someone else talk about it instead of researching it. Before demonizing a President, before screaming that word "Socialism" - THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, because you are INFLUENCING OTHERS to believe FALSE HISTORY.

To all that have taken the time to read this, i greatly appreciate it. If it intrigues you, do more research and educate others.

-Revolt 426


______________________________

http://christianinfobomb.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13915&p=59906#p59906


Revolt 426:


Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:31 pm
Posts: 222

II. The Government Must NEVER INTERVENE IN or REGULATE the Economy

This foolish myth from the Austrian School of Von Mises is based on the idea that the only way to have a stable market without tyranny is for the Government to remain 100% un-involved in it, that includes issuance of currency. The claim is, an invisible, mythical hand will swoop down and always correct any problems. This rumor is debunked at a later point in this essay. Contrary to this rumor, there are certain regulations (obviously , not all of them) that would very much benefit the Nation. I will go over a few of these regulations and debunk this notion that an Economy with no regulation is infallable and sound. In addition to the utopian "No Regulation" rule, United States history was never based on the Government staying completely out of the economy since our first President, George Washington, who was dedicated to infrastructure projects.

First and foremost, before even addressing types of regulations, the fact of the matter is De-Regulation is what created this crisis. This is a Derivative Crisis combined with a thermo-dynamic breakdown of our Nations Physical Economic Infrastructure or Physical Economy relative to the population density. For those that do not understand what is going on , A Derivative is a mass of Toxic Unpayable debt in the form of Many Mortgages slapped together and called a "Collaterized Debt Obligation" or a "Mortgage Backed Security". These masses of DEBT were created to the tune of atleast 1.5 Quadrillion Dollars (1500 Trillion) , with some newer estimates higher, and Stamped as Triple A "Assets" by regulators. The Derivative industry is 100% Private/Off Book, and was illegal from 1936 till the 1980's When Ronald Reagan legalized them. This overhanging debt is making it impossible for Commercial Banks to function , because all of the major Commercial Banks of the world are interlinked with Derivative Contracts. The important note here is, if Glass Steagalls Prohibition for Commercial/Deposit Taking Banks from Speculating was not repealed in 1999 under Bill Clinton, the Republican Congress and intense lobbying and lying by Larry Summers, this crisis would not be a Break down, but a fixable Depression. However, since Commercial Banks were allowed to engage in speculation - we now have a spider web of 1.5 Quadrillion or more dollars of worthless debt interlinking all major Commercial Banks and Major Insurance Companies. The Insurance Companies, such as the cash unit the criminals use to transfer money to banks AIG , engaged in insuring these Derivatives in the form of Credit Default Swaps (CDS) . When a speculator purchases a Credit Default Swap the Insurer has an obligation to pay a sum near the principle investment to the Speculator. So, in the case of Lehman Bros. , which had massive AIG (CDS) associated with that Investment House, Lehman was intentionally allowed to collapse and it caused a Chain Reaction which took out numerous other institutions including most important, AIG. AIG was Nationalized as a conduit for all bailout money to pay off speculators in the form of Credit Default Swaps - Insurance policies on nothing more than GAMBLING. So in the name of humanity, at least recognize this situation is UNCORRECTABLE unless these institutions with Derivative Exposure are put through Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Re-Organization to audit and freeze all speculative bets in the form of ANY Derivatives permanently to relieve the crushing debt that will eventually destroy the entire world economy.


-Let us start with the infamous Glass Steagall Act, passed by Franklin Roosevelt in 1933. This Act provided standards for Chartered Banks in the form of prohibiting them from Speculating with Depositor Money. Much of the bubble that was imploded in 1929 was a result of the then equivalent to Derivatives, "Options". Prior to this law, Banks that took Deposits were allowed to speculate with other peoples money!. The result of this Act passing and being signed into law was the forced splitting of Mega-Bank (Commercial Banks that were merged with Investment Houses) to isolate the "Option" crisis to Investment Houses and free the Commercial Banks of these debt burdens so they could continue to function. One notable result was the splitting of JP Morgan Bank into JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley. It this a damaging regulation?, to prevent Bankers from speculating with entrusted deposits from the population?. I surely do not think so, and as we all know, this crisis would not be here today if the above parts of that act were not repealed in 1999 which resulted in a 1.5 Quadrillion Dollar bubble of Derivatives and our current MELTDOWN. The Austrian's argue that if Fractional Reserve Banking were not allowed then this act would not be required. I do not see how this assumption is accurate considering if there were no regulations in the alleged Austrian Version of a "Free Market" , there would be nothing preventing the Bankers from taking Deposit money and doing it anyway, after all they are criminals. In addition, i see nothing wrong with setting standards for Commercial Banks, since the goal of a Commercial Bank is to provide credit to business and productive activities as opposed to being parasites. Another problem with this assumption is that using Gold as a currency has been proven to wreck economies , because there is no way to determine the value of the Gold without a relative currency, and it has no resemblence to the value of an actual currency (As shown in this paper) - The result of a Domestic Gold Standard was shown in the resulting Depression after the Panic of 1837 by the policies of Andrew Jackson and Martin Van Buren. So, as shown again, the idea that if an economy has absolutely no regulation , Gold or other commodity based standards will automatically be sound and correct itself is a utopian falsehood. This area of history is one completely ignored by Goldbugs - while they simoultaniously tout President Jackson as a Hero for "Defeating" the Central Bankers, when infact , the Second National Bank was not a Central Bank (But this is another issue) , and he did indeed wipe out much of the Nations wealth which lead to the Civil War about 25 years later.


-Take the ability for speculators.... like Nazi, George Soros to "Short" (or dump and drive down currency's) of third world nations, and recover the currency once it has drastically dropped to profiteer off of other human beings suffering. Exchange Rate Controls in the form of an International Gold Standard to Fix Exchange Rates would quickly solve this problem. In addition, it would stabilize international trade during times of duress (like now). The Bretton Woods System was an International Gold Standard, which anchored the dollar to Gold at 35$ an ounce thus fixing all exchange rates based on each nations Gold Reserves relative to the dollar. The Bretton Woods system worked just fine in regards to preventing currency speculation and stabilizing trade. Suppose for a minute, in our current economic breakdown crisis, one currency inflates and one deflates - would this not render it impossible to trade between these Nations?. The Austrian School opposes Exchange Rate Controls "That is Tyranny", On the contrary, the ability to have your currency destroyed by parasites is tyranny. This system was of course collapsed by Henry Kissinger under the Nixon Administration, not exactly a group of good people. Did they collapse the exchange rate controls to give you freedom or take it away?

-How about Coin Clipping? If we were to have a Domestic Gold Standard imposed on us , the ancient issue of people clipping small pieces of gold off each coin and smelting them into bullion would return , would it not?. With a paper currency, you can cut the bill in half and tape it back together and it still represents the value of the underlying physical economy.

- Bank "Redlining" is also a regulation i find would improve the population. "Redlining" is when a Bank intentionally does not lend or provide services in specific areas because they are either not as profitable, or they wish for this area to remain undeveloped.... If this is allowed to occur, the Bankers certainly have Free Markets, but what about the poverty stricken people who are unable to get lines of credit ?. This is Freedom similar to the Confederate Constitutions definition of what Freedom ought to be, without the General Welfare clause.

- Land Speculation is a very large , and ignored issue in the current economic system. Wealthy people with nefarious intentions buy up lots of land for the sole purpose of leaving them undeveloped. Exxon Mobile and Royal Dutch Shell purchase lots of oil field land and intentionally do not develop them to drive oil prices up.



"How important is land speculation in today's economy? You be the judge. Here we see one of the aces that Donald Trump held during his financial slump of the 1990s: the old Penn Central rail yards, 52 acres on the west side of Manhattan. This photo actually appeared in a late 80s advertisement for the planned "Trump City." Trump held the site, looking just like this, for about fifteen years. Finally, after many rounds of taxpayer-funded offerings -- including the re-routing of the West Side Highway -- the site was developed, into upscale housing."
http://www.henrygeorge.org/bust.htm


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http://bx.businessweek.com/dealing-with-the-home-mortgage-crisis-/view?url=http%3A%2F%2Flibertyrevival.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F02%2F03%2Fthe-austrian-school-deception-22%2F

_______________

Webster Tarpley on Ron Paul's economic philosophy:


Republican Ron Paul, interviewed on August 10 after the close by the infamous Kudlow, blamed the credit market panic on interest rates which had been too low. Paul should recall that any interest rates above 5%, as charged on these mortgages, are historically very high. (During World War II, for example, successful New Deal policies allowed a typical 2% yield for a 10-year Treasury note, with other rates in line with that.) Paul was adamant that there be no bailout, but did not distinguish between help for ordinary people facing foreclosure and eviction on the one hand, and bailouts for predatory financier sharks on the other. His only advice was to “let the market liquidate bad debt and bad investment” – which, under current conditions, will mean that more than 10 million people will be thrown out on the street during the next few months. One hears an echo of monetarist Andrew Mellon, Herbert Hoover’s Secretary of the Treasury, whose advice on how to deal with the Great Depression was “Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate real estate….” Those on the receiving end of such “creative destruction,” as Schumpeter called it, have generally lost their enthusiasm for monetarism.

Paul mocked warnings that “poor people are losing their homes” – a sadly Dickensian moment, since that is just what is happening to ten million Americans. When asked how much he would like to cut federal spending, Paul said that under his presidency it would come down by “50-60-70%” – figures which seem to bode ill for the future of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, unemployment insurance, WIC, Head Start, S-CHIP (medical care for poor children), TANF (what is left of welfare for mothers with dependent children), and other programs which keep many Americans alive. The Republican line from Giuliani to Paul is that these institutions are part of the hated “nanny state.” When asked for specifics about what he would cut, Paul mentioned the abolition of the Department of Education, a favorite target of Republicans. Does that include Pell grants and federal support for subsidized Stafford loans, which are the only way the ghetto poor and much of the middle class can hope to send their children to college? No help here for victims of the current economic breakdown crisis, but Kudlow said that this approach would be well received on Wall Street..

GOPer Ron Paul has said that he admires the late Ohio Senator Robert Taft, “Mr. Republican,” who was like many in his family a member of Skull and Bones. One wonders if this admiration includes Taft’s sponsorship of the infamous union-busting Taft-Hartley Act, which has allowed many southern states to effectively block union organizing with so-called “right to work” laws, thus greatly facilitating the demolition of the US labor movement over recent decades. Taft-Hartley has been the key to the race to the bottom in wages and working conditions in this country. It should be repealed and replaced with a modern version of the pro-labor Wagner Act, which made it easier for workers to organize, bargain collectively, and defend themselves. Repeal of Taft-Hartley would be a first step towards rolling back the low-wage Walmart-McDonalds model for the US economy.

Revolt 426 on FDR

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=84736.40

Like i said - there is conflicting information about Pearl Harbor.

I didn't say i knew one way or another.

As for his plan - you certainly were not alive in the 1930's, and i respectfully disagree with you.

Certain aspects of his plan certainly did fail
Cetain aspects of his plan worked rather well actually

I've read just about all material possible for both sides of the arugment and i am entitled to my opinion. You can quote the entire 1933 Congressional Records , i've already read most of them (Yes McThadden too).

When JP Morgan and a group of bankers ( A Group of Fascists) attempt to assassinate and overthrow a president, then that president goes to war with Fascists, i find it hard to believe the President IS a Fascist.

The population, (Who were not as stupid back then) elected Roosevelt 4 times, more then any other President in History.

There is MASSIVE disinformation about him on the net.

however - i see your points and i agree there were certain policies that were detrimental, what most do not understand is the New Deal was partially experimental. It had never been done before on such a large scale, it was a mimic of Abraham Lincolns Economic Policies with some Social aspects and some other aspects.

The plan however as a whole, did NOT fail - the argument that World War 2 saved the economy is the biggest failure i've ever heard. We've been at war numerous times in this country and it has never brought us out of a Depression nor brought us prosperity.

Some aspects of the plan did prolong the Depression, but i dont judge FDR by the results of his failed policies i judge him by his intention and overall effect.

The Fundamental policies FDR used that i agree with are:

#1 Putting the FED into bankruptcy , because it had issued 100 billion dollars in Gold Convertable notes during the prior 2 administrations and only had 4 Billion in their Reserves - That is called being insolvent and the law says when a Bank goes insolvent you put it into bankruptcy. In our current situation infact, if we do not put the FED and entire system into bankruptcy the Derivative bubble will destroy civilization.

#2 Using the Bankrupt FED to monetize Federal Credit for use in Infrastructure investments - Lincoln always said Labour is prior and superior to capital. That means each dollar monetized for infrastructure had labour attached to it - that gives a currency real value , not a piece of metal.

#3 The Bretton Woods System, Fixed Exchange Rate system that prevented a single economic bubble from occuring from 1944-1971. The dollar was anchored by gold thus FIXING all exchange rates. This also prevents Imperialist Currency Speculators from driving down third world currencies, or "Shorting" them.

He also enstated Social Security, why? because Old people who were robbed of their life savings (like today!) were broke and starving to death......... Now, i am not a socialist but i can UNDERSTAND WHY he did something like that.

Things i disagree with about FDR:
1# Price fixing in the Agriculture Markets to stop deflation which failed.

2# his attempt to "Pack" the Supreme Court (Although i again realize, the Supreme court was full of traitors from the prior THREE administrations) i am still against that idea.


As for the actual conduct of World War 2, I wasn't in the Whitehouse nor alive at the time - and last i heard we won. There is too much disinformation on the internet and real information in books so i dont go ahead and "GOOGLE" FDR and think i know everything about him. The same goes for numerous other Presidents and policitians.

Generally, the only people who vehemently oppose FDR are Austrians, a school that i could not disagree any more with when it comes to Economics.

If you want to crucify me for having similar views about FDR to that of Webster Tarpley, then go Crucify him also. He is actually, a Historian... that is his JOB, that has been his Job for most of his life. He Documents history, and i happen to agree with alot of what he says.

-Revolt 426

_________________________________

You are unfortunately , posting propagated history. We can go over FDR's policies one by one in the runup to the war i can will debunk anything you say, because i know it's propaganda.

It's funny how the internet is loaded with this notion that Rothschild was responsible for every depression in the US......

But as for FDR, you haven't got the slightest idea what you are posting, most of it is lies minced with half truths to distort a President who fought off a group of Fascists on Wall Street.

Do you think the bankers enjoyed the Glass Steagall act?

Being split into two?

Did they enjoy the Peroca hearings?

Did Andrew mellon enjoy being prosuceted by FDR?

You fail to realized the US was going through a cataclysmic collapse and FDR managed to avert it, by rebuilding and modernizing the US infrastructure via federal credit lending, not spending.

Not everything he did was perfect, but he averted a complete Collapse of the Nation.

-Revolt 426

Revolt426's words

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=105934.360

Actually, Israel is an extension of the British Empire , Netanyahu's father was a British Intelligence asset (and so is he).

What you know as the "North American Empire" is merely a miltary arm of the British Empire (Which is the only real Empire that has existed since the 14th Century).

wow another naive individual who does not understand the crown created zionism about 40 years afted the muslim brotherhood and pinned them against eachother via the sykes picot agreement

-Revolt 426


______________

Quote from: aLLyOuRbAsE on June 16, 2009, 09:54:14 PM
ive read "road to serfdom", i thought it was a very honest book, there wasnt any ambiguity, in fact, before reading that book i was pretty much opposed to state provided welfare, but it now seems reasonable to me that a "safety net" be provided, so long as it was garunteed to everyone equally as individuals, and that it wasnt getting us into debt. i particularly found Hayeks comments on central planning to be very enlightening and i reccommend people read that book just to understand what central planning really is.

with regards to the argument about currencies that is dominating this thread now, i have no real dispute between either of the options presented, whether that be gold currency or fixed exchange rates, i think in both circumstances the practice of fractional reserve banking and usury in the creation of new money would not exist, so both would be a damn sight better than what weve got!

personally, i would like to see the use of competing currencies, where wealth was converted into currency directly, no middle man, with freedom of choice.


Of course i obviously agree, there has to be a form of saftey net for the very situation we are currently witnessing ( An incalculable Depresssion that will result in starvation and death if not addressed ). I would agree , it has to be reformed to prevent the massive abuse (Like illegal aliens not paying for it and getting the benefits anyway) , but to call medicaid/medicare "Socialism" is by definition a falsehood and is a big problem because calling a social net, "Socalism" or "Marxism" in this case narrows everyones views to the Preditory Capitalist System VS. the "Socialist" system when infact, you can of course have none of the above if you broaden your perspectives. I see the labeling of all Government activities as "Marxist Socialism" , which the mises website does in nearly all of their articles as a deadly threat to humanity.... which is why i attempt to highlight that "Marxist Socialism" is when the Government Seizes the Means of Production - not when the Government constitutionally provides for the General Welfare of the public. I know you understand this, so do not think i am attacking you here, i am merely highlighting it because i think it's very important.


In regards to both systems being the same, i'd certainly have to disagree with you there.... due to the fact that a fixed exchange rate system would allow the new currency to be pegged to current price levels to avoid the very deflation that an actual domestic gold coin barter standard would result in. That is the major issue here, an International Gold Standard can be pegged to current price levels, but a Domestic Gold Coin standard obviously cannot due to the impossibility of obtaining enough Gold to peg to current price levels..... In addition, a Domestic Gold Coin standard is the use of a commodity as Currency , which i've highlighted as not a "Storage Unit of Wealth" - but a means of exchange valued by a Nations net productive output per capita. So what you have here is using a volatile piece of metal (in the case of Gold) being used as a currency. This means gold mining drives currency levels as opposed to economic expansion - i believe doing this is a grave mistake and a also addressed this in my original post, as Mining for Gold really bears to resemblence to an actual economies expansion rate at all, while Infrastructure infact directly represents an economies expansion rate.

In regards to competeing currency (Specifically for private obligations) i'd also have to disagree , the reality of the situation is that this has indeed been attempted by none other than Andrew Jackson, and the result wiped out the perceived "Weaker" currency, and many families savings were wiped out along with it just because they held state issued notes and not gold convertable notes (Which later imploded the economy anyway)..... so i would also disagree that a competeing currency would help becuase the weaker currency would inevitably be dumped and wiped out. If there were a way to introduce competeing currency without this threat - i perhaps would not be opposed to it, but to my knowledge i simply cannot think of a way for a competeing currency to provide for the General Welfare Clause in any way shape or form.

-Revolt 426

_______________


In our current situation the "Not matter what" phrase i used still stands. In my view, saving human lives during a Depression is far more important than deficit spending to "Balance the Budget" , as Mouslini said in his drive towards Corporatism, as Mayor Bloomberg and Arnold Schwarzeneggar parroted recently during economic hardships in regards to cutting public programs..... and as Obama is saying to "Cut Medicaid , Medicare" and now, Social Security - if however, we seized the insolvent banks rather then bailing them out and ended our occupation of numerous countries it is my sincere beleif it would not put us into debt, specifically with good monetary reform that increases the nations physical productive capabilities. The point of a social net is not only a moral one to provide health care (I'd suggest reforming and expanding medicare/medicaid) , but one that preserves the nations productive workforce from being wiped out, because without that workforce there is obviously no chance of a recovery.I'd also emphasize as Webster Tarpley did - no gutting of Social Security during a Depression. We are well aware 401k's/Pensions have been wiped out and with GM/Ford (Our last productive industry) going down this is going to drastically expand this problem.As you can see from the following, the powers that be are still to this day parroting the Mousilini "Balance the Budget" during economic hardship stuff, all the while completely dumping every cent of our GDP into bailing bankers out of a black hole......

-Revolt 426

Economic Information

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=105934.200

By the way, it is noteworthy to mention Lincoln did the exact opposite in regards to foreign relations , and Teddy Roosevelt had British Traitors all over his immediate family.

Actually, without Lincoln allying with the Czar of Russia, the Civil War would have destroyed the United States.

Teddy Roosevelt was put in to destroy relations with certain countries to pave the way for WWI

-Revolt 426

_________________________________

Revolt426 - Thanks for publishing the articles.

The headline caught my attention.

I don't have anything to contribute but I am compelled to say that diversity of opinion and perspective should be held sacred. I appreciate the hard work and information you are sharing.

Regardless of any particular economic theory, corruption always seems inevitable. Perhaps the root of the problem exists in the hearts of men?

-sig_garrett

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There will always be corruption, but it AMAZED me to see that on the Campaign for Liberty website!, good lord.

Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders started the god d___ spanish american war - McKinley was opposed to it , Roosevelt started it.......

The Lincoln issue has been debunked IN DETAIL numerous times on this forum, Lord Palmerston , Prime Minister of Britain wanted to cut the United States in half. So he funded the Confederacy, gave them free trade agreements for cheap slave cotton and sent in military advisors like CONFEDERATE GENERAL ALBERT PIKE.

And the Bashing of John F Kennedy, as if he was responsible for the CIA hitting Cuba behind his back.... he actually attempted to DESTROY the CIA.

Then the final oddity, Calvin Coolidge (Of all people) ranked 8th BEST President, the guy responsible for allowing his Treasury Secretary to create a bubble (Andrew Mellon) that was imploded in 1929.......

I Just can't believe what i am seeing here......


-Revolt 426



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http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=105934.240

This is nonsense to you:

http://www.monetary.org/mengerrefutation.html



.....The Circularity of Menger's Reasoning

There is a degree of circularity of reasoning in Menger's causes of liquidity and time and place factors. Remember, he is supposed to be defining causes of liquidity of a commodity, not causes of acceptability of a money. Of Menger's 6 causes (see Appendix 1), points 1,2,and 6 really reduce to one point - the effective demand for the commodity. Point number 2 furthermore should have referred to the trading power rather than purchasing power, as he is discussing a pre-monetary situation. Cause #6 would be entirely reflected in the effective demand.

Causes #3 and #4 are reducible to the supply of the commodity.


So we are left with 3 causes of liquidity - supply, demand, and his cause #5, the development of the market and of speculation in the commodity.

The circularity arises from the fact that cause # 5 can be viewed as much as a defining element of liquidity, as a cause of it. And indeed Menger uses it in that way! This can be seen in his use of quantity or volume of trading, as a qualification of liquidity:

"Again, account must be taken of the quantitative factor in the liquidity of commodities."(p.11)

But the quantitative factor is a part of cause number 5 - the development of markets. Thus the tight spread and volume traded in the market (quantity) becomes his definition of liquidity. Thus liquidity, by one defining element of it (development of market mechanisms) causes liquidity by another defining element of it (the tight spread).

So liquidity is caused by liquidity. I stress that I'm not.........




The Volatility of The Precious Metals Against Menger's Thesis

In fact, historical experience with the precious metals, in cases where they were and were not money, has demonstrated both periods of abrupt short lived changes in value in terms of other commodities, and of long drawn out changes where gold and silver lost as much as 80% of their value, and never recovered it.

For example in Greece, after Alexander's conquests and importation of captured gold, prices are reputed to have risen over 50%. In Italy, we read in Mommsen’s classic work of "The severe gold crisis - as about the year 600 AU.... when in consequence of the discovery of the Taurisian gold seams, gold as compared with silver fell at once in Italy by about 33%"........


....For more recent periods, when for all practical purposes, gold had lost its governmental sanction as money, it became even more volatile.

From 1971 to 1974 we saw gold increase over 500% from $38 to $200 an ounce.

In 1975, we saw gold drop almost exactly 50%, from $ 200 an ounce to $103.

We then saw an increase of over 700% to over $850 an ounce, and then a multiyear decline to $232. Now its reached $570 an ounce! It’s not possible to explain these movements as just due to changes in the dollar. Gold is volatile!

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No, let the Private Sector beware, we are not going to let our population die regardless of what you think the CAUSE of the problem was, the mere fact that deflation would still force millions out of their homes and you have no problem with that tends to turn me away from the Austrian "Solution". The problem is Private Sector issuence of currency and DERIVATIVES. DERIVATIVES DERIVATIVES DERIVATIVES, not housing prices, not fiat currency, not a lack of a utopian free market where the Government is able to "Enforce" all fraud and all is well.As for "Not being able to do anything about it" , the Home Owners and Bank Protection act would infact keep people in their houses and allow banks to continue to issue productive credit....... so , infact - you don't allow an orchestrated collapse to wreck the planet - you FIGHT IT.


It is noteworthy to mention Freddie and Fannie had to be Privatized in order for that to occur , and thankfully - they did not use a mask and revealed it was not the Government that did this, but a Privatized Banking Empire!.

Oh and to add, do not post that there was a bubble before being imploded (Which was in my original post) during the 1929-1933 period, just answer my question has to how the outstanding debt (The massive amounts of outstanding debt , a number un-imaginable) is going to correct itself when the contracts will not allow this, the Austrian school denies the Government can EVER intervene & if all loans were allowed to default the entire system would collapse and destroy the republic resulting in martial law and chaos.

No, actually 8 Billion dollars of grant money was issued for a Mag Lev (which would require over a hundred billion) and he wishes to build wind mills to replace functioning coal fired power plants - the true REVERSAL of progress for mankind.He isn't building anything, all so called "infrastructure" in his budget is in the drastic minority and is window dressing to sell to the progressives in congress, nothing more.

-Revolt 426

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12517



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Quote from: planning4acrash on June 05, 2009, 07:30:22 PM
The UK and US governments, and their politicians, and you, once you have national insurance, are listed as corporations. All listed on "Dunn and Bradsheet". All statute laws are contract laws under corporate admiralty law. So, the definition between public and private is, at the root asinine. There is corporate tyranny, vs liberty. That's all.

This argument only exists in the brain of one who cannot comprehend reality or history..... given the fact that you live under a monarchy i can understand where you are coming from, however in the United States we have broken free of Corporatist Fascism WITHOUT wiping billions of people out and we intend to do so again.

You admire Ron Paul, your argument assumes Ron Paul is part of the Corporatist State just because he is a politician. I admire others like Marcy Kaptur who are not afraid to publically address Derivatives. I do not think she is part of the Private Corporatist state nor do i think it is impossible for the people to regain control of their Government (which has been done numerous times here in the United States)..... while others may maintain "The Government is always the enemy EXCEPT FOR RON PAUL"........ i would just have to disagree with that.

In addition, the definition of Liberty is flexible in terms of the Austrian school, because according to you, allowing a systemic collapse of the entire economic system is freedom! .... well i beg to differ because i do not think de-populating the planet has any resemblence to "Liberty"..... i addressed this in the original post specifically with Exchange Rate Controls (Amongst other things). So the problem is, your definition of Liberty is quite inaccurate because private bankers looting elderly peoples pensions and 401k's is not Liberty in my view.

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http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=105934.280


There is also the additional tidbit that he has allowed the FED to continue Bernanke's insane "Quantitive Easing" , based on Milton Freidman's quanative theory of money. The printing and loaning of 9 to 11 Trillion dollars to finance capitalism as opposed to production/infrastructure.

I realize Obama touts his love for Lincoln (appearently an appeal to the african american community) however, he is the true ANTI-LINCOLN.

The clouded word "Fiscal Stimulus" may be taking you for a ride on propaganda express.

What is now considered a fiscal stimulus is to print currency and give it to people (Banks in the majority), and the drastic reduction of all medciaid, medicare and social security payouts.

So, fiscal stimulus to Obama = Stimulating the Finance Capitalist Bankers and letting the population drop dead.

Well, Obama has not put any insolvent banks into bankruptcy, and a private banking system still issues our currency (We cannot issue sovereign credit) - so him just building infrastructure would be a radical improvement but would not address many issues (Like the 1.5 Quadrillion dollar Derivative bubble) - so no, he would have to do alot more than that to win my support.

Building infrastructure without reforming the entire monetary system and wiping derivatives out is not going to work, the Derivative monster is crushing all bank ability to issue credit.

_____________________________________

From geolibertarian:

The problem is that "fiscal stimulus" usually means borrowing the money in question before "spending" it. This borrowing aspect is the literal opposite of what I'm proposing:

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http://www.wealthmoney.org/happen.html



What Would Happen?

If the American Transportation Act were passed and became effective January 1, 2006, you would no longer pay tax on gasoline, diesel or other fuels. You would pay no tax on oil products, no tollway fees, no axle taxes, license fees, or other taxes normally collected to pay for roads and bridges.

Taxes to build and maintain roads and bridges would no longer be collected. No more bonding would be necessary for road & bridge construction and maintenance. Property taxes would be lower. All new money would now be created and exchanged into circulation as a Wealth (debt-free) payment for the labor and raw resources used in combination to build and maintain our roads and bridges. These are a Wealth produced that benefit ALL citizens equally. This was the principle behind the 'monetizing' of gold and silver bullion Free as a Wealth to the people who produced it and a debt-free medium of exchange to ALL. The government would hold the roads and bridges in "trust" for the people who would thereafter use them free-of-charge with no taxation or fees of any kind. The new money would represent the Wealth of our Nation (peoples' labor and raw sources) just like gold certificates once represented the Wealth metal money produced by the people and deposited with the Treasury. The certificate represented the production and was as good as the Wealth (gold or silver) it represented.

[Continued...]

----------------------------------

There's a fundamental difference between monetizing debt (as Keynesian borrow-and-spenders would have us do) and monetizing wealth.

Logged

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"For the first years of [Ludwig von] Mises’s life in the United States...he was almost totally dependent on annual research grants from the Rockefeller Foundation.” -- Richard M. Ebeling

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=162212.0


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Economic Reform?

If they are not spent productively you get an economic breakdown like we are currently seeing, this can lead to inflation.

The point of spending them into productivity is that productivity (Labor) is required for Capitalism to exist.

Our current workforce is a "Service Economy" meaning, there is virtually no production left due to outsourcing to slave wage nations via "Free Trade" agreements.....

You cannot subsitute production with services, because it leads to the current situation. I hope that answers the question.

-Revolt 426



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I would not object to calling what I'm advocating "economic" stimulus, but calling it "fiscal" stimulus implies that the money being spent on public infrastructure is obtained either by taxing it first or by borrowing it first. And under my system it is neither taxed nor borrowed, but "issued."

If your definition of fiscal stimulus includes the option of issuing debt-free currency to fund infrastructure (as opposed to taxing or borrowing debt-based currency to fund it), then by all means call it that.

I was simply acknowledging the fact that, since the average American isn't even familiar with that option (yet), his definition of fiscal stimulus is usually limited to the other two options of tax-and-spend and borrow-and-spend, and that it would therefore likely cause unnecessary confusion in the minds of relative newcomers to lump all three options into the same category.

That's merely a point of clarification. I'm not even arguing with anyone at this point.


-geolibertarian

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Revolt 426 on Health Care

http://christianinfobomb.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14058&start=50

Best system is a balance so the Government pressures the Private Sector to have reasonable prices. That would be a Single Payer System for all people or Medicare for all.

Our country was founded on that idea by Benjamin Franklin and it was not until Andrew Jackson got elected that we went backwards , he destroyed the economy by creating the panic of 1837 and paved the route for the Secession movement and the Civil War.

Free Markets = Un-American. It's for Empire's not for Constitutional Republics.

-Revolt 426


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No, exactly the opposite!!! Look at Europe and everywhere where there is privatiation it goes bad, expenditure goes high, not on equipment and care, but profit and inflation of prices of medicines like 300%up in a short period of time.
goverment if it's 100% goverment have no interrest to jack up their own budgets, UNLESS there's a conflict of interrest paid of politicians and corporatism involved!!!If somebody makes money of you being ill , what do you think that happenes, what kind of medicines do you think they give to you to supposedly "help"you? They wouldn't like you to see heathy, they can't sell a darn thing to you!! govermment wouldn't have that interest.
The poster above, thinks, just because ron Paul says it, that goverment runs healthcare, but most is private, the idea that goverment runs healthcare in the US..big goverment is bogus!!Government is ony facilities and pressured to inflate budgets at the benefits of corporatists who fund politicians and want soemthing in return.

So do greedy private companies and big pharma with their eugenecist vaccinations etc. have business getting involved in healthcare then? The fact there is aspartame, , it's approved, bad vaccinations, fluoride etc is due to conflict of interrests and goverment officials bribed by corporatism, being tempted to aprove it, like the sold out FDA...who's chief worked for Monsanto, the GMO food producer.Goverment is bad enough, but corporatism in it is FAR WORSE!!!! That's why we have fascism right now and growing so!!

Defending the Rockefellers, wow, it gets more interresting every time, no wodner if the rockefelelr Foundation funded your Austrian School institute!! See, HERE it is that you already start to get conflict of interrest because of economics, wich should be sound science with private interest and people who like to bend economics for their selfish interests and then basicly force those who they funded and also because of this common connection for receiving money of the Rockefellers to talk no harm and be only positive and pretend like they are victims!!Here it starts folkes, the rest is history, goverment was bad enough, but it became REALLY bad when these guys began to influence goverment with their so called free market economy, which it is not, it's not a freemarket.


-Flying Dutch

Geolibertarian and Revolt 426's economic gems

There are quite a number of important political issues that are virtually screaming out for true reform, but if I had to pick the two most important, they would be (a) election reform, and (b) the subject of this thread -- monetary reform. If I had the power, I would simultaneously wipe out all derivatives; liquidate all of the ill-gotten assets of criminal scam artists like Henry Paulson and Bernard Madoff, and use the resultant proceeds to help replenish whatever retirement funds they raided; and replace our current debt-based money system with a debt-free money system, whereby all new money -- instead of being loaned into circulation at interest -- is spent into circulation interest-free to fund the production of public goods everyone can see and benefit from (e.g., roads and bridges), and at a rate pegged by law to objective criteria such as population growth and the general price level. Now, since derivatives are just glorified gambling bets, and since the derivatives bubble dwarfs not only the most liberal estimate of the U.S. money suppply, but the annual productive output of the entire planet, I think it's important to stress that the monetary issue is actually composed of two logically distinct sub-issues: (a) derivatives, and (b) fractional reserve banking. In the following posts I'll address each of those sub-issues in turn.

-geolibertarian


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Of all the artricles I've read concerning derivatives, I've yet to see one in which the issue of "consideration" is specifically addressed. For those unfamiliar with the concept of "consideration" as it relates to finance, allow me to provide a brief introduction. First there's the following clip: http://youtube.com/watch?v=hRzHDwQUJa0 Then there's the following written explanation (which, although excerpted from a web site based in India, is nevertheless the most straightforward explanation I've seen yet): ------------------------------------------- http://business.gov.in/manage_business/contracts_elements.php Essential Elements of a Contract Minimum two parties: At least two parties are needed to enter into a contact. One party has to make an offer and other must accept it. The person who makes the 'proposal' or 'offer' is called the 'promisor' or 'offeror'. While, the person to whom the offer is made is called the 'offeree' and the person who accepts the offer is called the 'acceptor'.... Lawful consideration: A contract is basically a bargain between two parties, each receiving 'something' of value or benefit to them. This 'something' is described in law as 'consideration'. Consideration is an essential element of a valid contract. It is the price for which the promise of the other is bought. A contract without consideration is void. The consideration may be in the form of money, services rendered, goods exchanged or a sacrifice which is of value to the other party. This consideration may be past, present or future, but it must be lawful.... Lawful object: The object of the agreement must be lawful. An agreement is unlawful, if it is: (i) illegal (ii) immoral (iii) fraudulent (iv) of a nature that, if permitted, it would defeat the provisions of any law (v) causes injury to the person or property of another (vi) opposed to public policy. ------------------------------------------- As some of you may already know, an airtight case could be made for invalidating virtually all bank loans on the ground that no "lawful consideration" was made on the part of the banks, since the "money" they offer as consideration for the borrower's promise to repay doesn't really exist. (Ellen Brown explains this more thoroughly here.) I oppose invalidating traditional bank loans, however, because doing so would cause the entire money supply to collapse and the economy along with it. That's where "converting the existing volume of bank credit into actual money having an existence independent of debt" (while simultaneously abolishing fractional reserve banking) comes in. Derivatives, however, are another story. Allow me to explain, as best I can, why derivatives contracts are more fraudulent -- and many times more parasitic and destructive -- than even fractional reserve lending, and why they should be invalidated accordingly. When a regular bank loan is made, the collateral-backed IOU offered by the borrower becomes an "asset" of the bank, while the money offered by the bank becomes an "asset" of the borrower. Granted, the so-called "money" offered by the bank doesn't even exist until the very moment the loan is extended, and even then exists only as a bookkeeping entry; but at least each party is going through the pretense of offering one legitimate financial asset as "lawful consideration" for another. Such is not the case with derivatives, because these are mere bets as to whether a given asset will go up in market value. Ellen Brown explains it this way (all emphasis original): ------------------------------------------- In a 1998 interview, John Hoefle, the banking columnist for EIR [Executive Intelligence Review], clarified the derivatives phenomenon using another colorful analogy. He said: During the 1980s, you had the creation of a huge financial bubble....You could look at that as fleas who set up a trading empire on a dog....They start pumping more and more blood out of the dog to support their trading, and then at a certain point, the amount of blood that they're trading exceeds what they can pump from the dog, without killing the dog. The dog begins to get very sick. So being clever little critters, what they do, is they switch to trading in blood futures. And since there's no connection -- they break the connection between the blood available and the amount you can trade, then you can have a real explosion of trading, and that's what the derivatives market represents. And so now you've had this explosion of trading in blood futures which is going right up to the point that now the dog is on the verge of dying. And that's essentially what the derivatives market is. It's the last gasp of a financial bubble. What has broken the connection between "the blood available and the amount you can trade" is that derivatives are not assets. They are just bets on what the asset will do, and the bet can be placed with very little "real" money down. Most of the money is borrowed from banks that create it on a computer screen as it is lent. The connection with reality has been severed so completely that the market for over-the-counter derivatives has now reached many times the money supply of the world. Since these private bets are unreported and unregulated, nobody knows exactly how much money is riding on them; but the Bank for International Settlements reported that in the first half of 2006, their "notional value" had soared to a record $370 trillion. The notional value of a derivative is a hypothetical number described as "the number of units of an asset underlying the contract, multiplied by the spot price of the asset." Synonyms for "notional" include "fanciful, not based on fact, dubious, imaginary." Just how fanciful these values actually are is evident in the numbers: $370 trillion is 28 times the $13 trillion annual output of the entire U.S. economy. In 2005, the total annual productive output of the world was only $44.4 trillion.... How are these astronomical derivative sums even possible? The answer, again, is that derivatives are just bets, and gamblers can bet any amount of money they want. Gary Novak is a scientist with a website devoted to simplifying complex issues. He writes, "It's like two persons flipping a coin for a trillion dollars, and afterwards someone owes a trillion dollars which never existed." He calls it "funny money." Like the Mississippi Bubble, the derivatives bubble is built on something that doesn't really exist; and when the losers cannot afford to pay up on their futures bets, the scheme must collapse. Either that, or the taxpayers will be saddled with the bill for the largest bailout in history. -- Web of Debt, pp. 195-97 ------------------------------------------- (Note the last setence in the above excerpt -- in which Ellen Brown refers to the "largest bailout in history" -- and consider the fact that her book was published in 2007!) In light of the above, may I correctly assume that the person reading this will agree with me when I say that author Webster Tarpley was absolutely spot on when he wrote the following? FOR RECOVERY, WIPE OUT, SHRED, DELETE ALL DERIVATIVES J.P. Morgan Chase, therefore, performs no useful or productive social function, and there is absolutely no reason in the world why the people of the United States should want to bail out this pernicious and socially destructive institution. It has probably been several decades since J.P. Morgan Chase created a single modern productive job. J.P. Morgan Chase's strategic commitment in favor of the derivatives bubble means essentially that we can easily dispense with most of the functions of this self-styled "bank," really a casino. Instead of being bailed out, J.P. Morgan Chase ought therefore to be seized by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, and put through chapter 11 bankruptcy. In the course of that bankruptcy reorganization, the entire derivatives book of J.P. Morgan Chase must be deleted, shredded, used as a Yule log, or employed to stoke a festive bonfire of the derivatives. The world did much better when there were no derivatives, and will get along just fine without them.

Logged

-geolibertarian


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---

We need election reform, monetary reform, and for everyone to watch:

http://video.google.com/videoplay

For anyone new to this, below are five additional monetary reform measures, any one of which would be an enormous improvement over the current system:

The Monetary Reform Act

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNumEm2NzQA
http://www.themoneymasters.com/mra.htm

The American Monetary Act

http://www.infowars.com/?p=4174
http://jurisvodcast.com/2008/08/30/the-american-monetary-act/
http://www.monetary.org/amacolorpamphlet.pdf <--- .pdf file!

The American Transportation Act

http://www.wealthmoney.org/solution.html
http://www.wealthmoney.org/happen.html

Ellen Brown's Monetary Proposal

http://webofdebt.wordpress.com/monetary-proposal/

Richard C. Cook’s “Greenback and National Dividend” Proposal

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12932

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The First Great Depression was caused by 3 main factors
1) The Gold Standard Combined with the FED
2) The then equivilent to Derivatives
3) De-Regulation of the entire speculation system

A Derivative, in the 1930's when Franklin Roosevelt took office was called an option. Since 1901, When Traitor Teddy Roosevelt destroyed lincolns system with the Gold Standard, the Nation began to slowly de-industrialize.

A Derivative is essentially a mass of toxic unpayable mortgages or (futures of mortgages) that are worthless. They are "Exotic investment vehicles" That the private banking sector promised tremendous returns on, in todays case a mass of unpayable mortgages.

There is a 1.5 Quadrillion Dollar bubble of these Derivatives in the system today. This means there is 1.5 Quadrillion dollars of unprinted financial obligations that must be either A) Printed and paid off or B) Frozen

So, in regards to 1920-1932, this was a tremendous bubble that was blown out over the course of 13 years under the Treaury Secretary Andrew Mellon in which the Federal Reserve issued 100 Billion dollars in Gold Convertable FED Notes with only 4 Billion in Reserves. The bubble was created, by the private sector and on the Gold Standard, thus, by the time FDR took office, the entire system was collapsing and there was no way to rebuild the nation that had been de-industrialized for decades after the destruction of the Greenback / Credit system.

When FDR took office in 1933, the entire system had failed after "Free Marketeer" Herbert Hoover pumped banks full of money and accomplished nothing but destroying the United States Banking system. When FDR was inuagurated people were unable to cash checks or make cash withdrawals at most banks. He immediately put the entire system into bankruptcy as opposed to "Bailing out banks, and allowing the markets to correct themselves"...................

Eventually after freezing many speculations and using the bankrupt FED to monetize federal loans and rebuild the nations basic infrastructure, he signed a law banning all Derivatives, or "Options", which are nothing more then speculations meant to destroy the economy and allow bankers to loot the Nation.

Contrary to the Austrian myth that the Private Sector can never make a mistake, and an invisible hand will swoop down and fix the system, on this occasion and every prior occasion a domestic Gold Standard was implimented in the United States, it resulted in an uncorrectable Depression which required Government Intervention. This is a historic fact that they will continue to ignore until the 9th gate of hell opens.

Either way, as for your question in particular, Reagan was put into office after 15 years of Monetarism, which is simply the beleif that money can be printed (in the form of gold or paper) with intinisic value and that all Government Regulations are bad for the economy. This is an idea based on the concept of a "Post Industrial Society" and a "Consumer Economy", which is a myth as well. Prior to reagans election, there was a depression caused by Nixon/Kissinger's Vietnam War, followed by Jimmy Carter and Paul Volker by raising the FED prime rate to 23% and destroying the industrial base of the United States, hence the Reaganites came in and de-regulated the financial markets to substitute for physical production. This lasted for 20 years until the bottom of the system fell out and we are now experiancing the ramifications of
A) Monetarist De-Regulation, specifically in the form of Derivatives (Speculations)
B) A Nation without updated Infrastructure, that is literally collapsing, which is required for a productive economy to function (Bridges, Freight Trains, Mass Transit, Roadways, Water Treatment Plants, Power plants).
C) A Private Bank issueing our currency with no Congressional or Treasury Control that colludes with the Treasury. This is Fascism in reality, because the Treasury Secretary is colluding with a Private Bank (The Federal Reserve)

So, we are now dealing with a Post Industrial Wreckage field of an economy, of which the basic infrastructure is collapsing and the entire system is bankrupt. Some people advocate we "Allow the system to collapse", but neglect to realize that if we do indeed follow these insane methods, it will blow the entire world economy out overnight and the economy will grind a complete halt. We will literally end up, in the stone age - you will probably have to hunt for food , that is if you can get around the military who will surely be called in to quell the chaos of an economic collapse in the form of Martial Law.

The proposals in this thread are alternatives to the insane methods, that would not result in genocide on a scale never before witnessed.

-Revolt 426

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I come up with it from doing REAL research as opposed to being a "GOOGLE" Researcher. Here , go educate yourself instead of posting nonsense propaganda from the AMERICAN LIBERTY LEAGUE:
http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/53/all-both.html

http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm

PART 7

BRITISH FINANCIAL WARFARE: 1929; 1931- 33

HOW THE CITY OF LONDON CREATED THE GREAT DEPRESSION

by Webster G. Tarpley
December, 1996

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Hey Clearmyst, FDR was surely not perfect however, the New Deal was an expermental process. Things were done right, things were done incorrectly.

There are MASSES of Dis-Information on the net about FDR, it would require going to an actual bookstore or amazon and ordering a detailed book on him , and reading his quotes to actually understand his intentions. A fellow by the name of Shayler has written a complete book of BS about FDR and it is circulating around the world/net. I would suggest reading about his history has a Naval officer, there are some interesting things to be read.

It is absurd to call FDR a fascist ( i am not saying you did this, nor is this directed at you, however it is a common theme to associate FDR with Keynes, which is nonsense, infact they argued throughout the entire Bretton Woods Conference about a 1 world currency) considering a group of fascist bankers header by JP Morgan tried to assassinate and overthrow him.

The key thing to understand about Roosevelt's Infrastructure policy is, it was not Spending money - it was Federal Credit, or simply an investment for the Nation based on Lincolns economic policy.

Aspects of the New Deal / FDR that were correct things to do considering the crisis:
1) Put the insolvent FED into Bankruptcy for the issuence of 100 billion dollars in Gold Convertable Currency in the prior 2 administrations with only 4 Billion in Gold Reserves (This leads to the de-coupling of gold from the dollar , quite obviously)

2) Using the FED during bankruptcy as a Federal Credit Window to the ECONOMY, not the Commercial Banking system for the sole purpose of investing in high tech infrastructure

3) Enacting some Social programs to stop elderly people from starving to death

4) The Bretton Woods System, an International Fixed Rate system anchored by gold, which in reality prevented speculators from creating bubbles from 1944 to 1971 when Kissinger and Nixon collapsed it.

Things FDR Did that were wrong:

1) Price Fixing in the Agriculture markets to fight Deflation
2) Allowing Congress to stomp on his Infrastructure policies in 1936 and caving into them, hence allowing the economy to re-collapse to some extent in 1937
3) (I cannot accuse him of caving into the FED because he died in 1944 before the war ended, his intentions were to take the machine tool capabilities of the War and convert them into Physical goods and infrastructure. However, if you must go there - He did not get rid of the FED.

As i said, the new deal was an experiment, based on Lincolns "Science Driver" economic policies of investing federal funds directly into infrastructure - there were some programs that ended up being detrimental to the country however as a whole, the New Deal actually in REALITY did save the country from complete economic melt down, contrary to the idiotic assumption that WW2 saved the US economy *LAUGH* we are in 2 wars right now, is it saving the economy? I Wish!.

-Revolt 426


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REALITY:
A select few people in this forum are completely delusional and think they can grasp history by using the CIA RUN GOOGLE SEARCH ENGINE, Including the person who has an obsessive fettish with lambasting FDR when he hasn't the SLIGHEST CLUE what FDR actually did, which is avert a TOTAL ECONOMIC COLLAPSE, which means MARTIAL LAW and the END OF THE UNITED STATES. So, now as we FACE A FAR GREATER DISASTER, 3 Famous People in American History have been SLANDERED to prevent people from LOOKING at what they ACTUALLY DID, including Alexander Hamilton, Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Roosevelt, who ALL USED THE SAME ECONOMIC POLICY.. So you have some kind of Anti-FDR Fettish based on LIES, the very same LIES that presume Andrew Jackson was a HERO when infact he wiped out the US economy and paved the way for the Civil War, the Very same LIES that accuse Hamilton of being a British Traitor, the Very same LIES that slander LINCOLN.

If you are unable to do anything other then copy/paste horse s__, then i think people will realize this.

There is HOARDS of disinformation all over the internet, and consiquently we have COPY/PASTER researchers whom haven't the slightest IDEA what they are yapping about, since they are copy/pasting SOURCELESS OR PROPAGATED information. In particular AMITY SHLAES, a character from the CFR and American Enterprise Institute

REALITY:
SOCIALISM: When the Government SEIZES MEANS OF PRODUCTION

REALITY:
FDR NEVER DID THAT

REALITY:
The ALTERNATIVE to the TRADING WITH THE ENEMY ACT was the COLLAPSE OF THE UNITED STATES. The FEDERAL RESERVE, ON THE GOLD STANDARD, issued 100 BILLION dollars in Gold Convertable Notes with 4 Billion in Gold. There was a RUN ON THE FED SYSTEM, People were HOARDING GOLD, and it HAD TO BE PUT INTO BANKRUPTCY and DECOUPLED FROM GOLD;

Quote
public right to know. Read the following Congressional quote:

"My investigation convinced me that during the last quarter of a century the average production of gold has been falling off considerably. The gold mines of the world are practically exhausted. There is only about $11,000,000,000 in gold in the world, with the United States owning a little more than four billions. We have more than $100,000,000,000 in debts payable in gold of the present weight and fineness. . . As a practical proposition these contracts cannot be collected in gold for the obvious reason that the gold supply of the entire world is not sufficient to make payment."

-- Congressional Record, Congressman Dies, March 15, 1933.


REALITY:
FDR HAD NO INVOLVENMENT IN PEARL HARBOR, which was orchestrated by the BRITISH and MOLES in the NAVY.

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=88303

Webster G. Tarpley Debunks Pearl Harbor Myths (And British Spy Ring EXPOSED)


REALITY
AN ECONOMY cannot FUNCTION without INFRASTRUCTURE (Without a ROAD you cannot TRANSPORT goods, WITHOUT POWER you cannot have a FACTORY).
FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT put ALL INSOLVENT BANKS into BANKRUPTCY after his FIRST DAY IN OFFICE, including the FEDERAL RESERVE and USED IT to monetize FEDERAL LOANS to rebuild the NATIONS INFRASTRUCTURE, which had been DESTROYED from 1901 to 1932.

Example; The Tennesse Valley Authority provided power to rural farms when the PRIVATE SECTOR WAS BANKRUPT, and RE-INDUSTRIALIZED the AREA.

REALITY:
The AMERICAN LIBERTY LEAGUE, Funded by JP Morgan, The DuPonts, The Rockefellers and the gang, attempted to assassinate and OVERTHROW FDR.

Link WITH SOURCES
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2006/3332morgan_coup_plot.html

The Morgan Fascist Coup Plot
and How FDR Defeated It


REALITY:
FDR Argued with Churchill over British Imperialism on numerous occasions, here is ONE witnessed by FDR's SON ELLIOT ROOSEVELT;
http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2007/2007_1-9/2007_1-9/2007-7/pdf/7-8_707_feat-2.pdf

REALITY:
The American Liberty League , EXPOSED BY SMEDLY BUTLER quite obviously did NOT COOPERATE with FDR, considering they tried to KILL HIM.

LINK WITH SOURCES:
http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/53/all-both.html

Lurking in the background behind the plot to oust FDR was the American Liberty League, a pro-business think-tank and ultra-right wing lobby group. Its treasurer was Jerry MacGuire’s boss, Grayson Murphy, a leading J.P. Morgan broker. One of its top donors was Robert Clark, who also tried to recruit General Smedley Butler into the conspiracy to oust President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

General Butler testified to the MacCormack-Dickstein Committee that when he asked whether anything was “stirring” with regards to Jerry MacGuire’s wealthy backers’ plans for a “superorganization” to coordinate the coup against FDR, MacGuire predicted the American Liberty League’s emergence, saying: “Yes, you watch; in two or three weeks you will see it come out in the paper. There will be big fellows in it. This is to be the background of it.”



-Revolt 426

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Notice how the above post, once again is SOURCELESS NONSENSE..... A pattern emerges again... What a Suprise.

I would advise people to do their OWN research from actual BOOKS on Franklin Roosevelt.

Everything This clown has mentioned has been debunked and he reposts the same crap each and every instance, for what reason?

I haven't the slighest idea.......

He appearently is in a CULT?... or Perhaps he has an Anti-FDR fettish ,

However, if you are to call FDR a communist, you are also calling Abraham Lincoln , Benjaman Franklin, Alexander Hamilton , John Quincy Adams and Henry Clay COMMUNISTS.....

And , As we all know, None of the above ever seized markets, which is precisely what Communism is.... So, the slander of Roosevelt continues - a shame that one of about 4 Presidents in the last Century who was NOT controlled by the London/Wallstreet Fascists is slandered to prevent people from even glimpsing at what he actually did, which i mentioned in prior posts.

SOURCES ARE IMORTENT, Anyone can go ahead and re-write history, as shown by Lord Edward Cokes absurd insinutations....... "FDR did this, FDR did that" with absolutely NO PROOF.....

And too add to this, he is using Amity Shlaes, a Rupert Murdoch asset from the CFR and American Enterprise Institute as one of his ONLY sources for history - that is quite sad.

I've noticed you tend to change the subject everytime you are proved wrong. Is this a mental condition or are you just in denial?.

If you cannot understand that the FED sucks cash out of the US economy and destroys it with it's interest rates because it's a PRIVATE BANK, then you should probably go work in another area, economics is not for you. Where do you think the interest goes? do you think the Federal Reserve gives it to the Government to pay down the National Debt? No, actually ..... it's called a defacto inflation tax which allows the jackals to maintain domestic purchasing power of the dollar by sucking currency out of the physical economy (The PEOPLE) and allowing the banks to transfer the majority of profits to themselves , since the FED does indeed LEND money to the BANKS at X% Interest, and the BANKS in turn LEND MONEY to the "alleged" businesses that are supposed to produce goods at Y% Interest.(Or they use to, now they are insolvent). Y% Interest is far greated then X% interest in our case, so the banks indeed are sucking money from the economy and hoarding it, and the FED is indeed sucking money from the economy and destroying it.

And as for your economic text books, that is appearently your problem. You are just as educated as the jack____ at Harvard , Yale and Columbia that put us into this mess (Such as LARRY SUMMERS).



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And the Bankers control 80+% of the Gold Supply , not to mention the 100 other problems associated with the Gold Standard including putting a Cap on population levels and horrid deflation. So the best way to do this is a State issued currency that is not capped but invested or spent directly into infrastructure to faciltitate the expanding population. The Water treatment plant example is one of the biggest necessities aside from updating our transit systems that are collapsing.

The destabalization of the 1930's was caused by the Gold Standard and a 30% Contracton in the money supply due to systematic bankruptcy.

The Destablization in the 1970's was caused by the collapsing of the Bretton Woods system (The international Gold Standard that fixed exchange rates) and the Vietnam war.

The most crucial issue that you do not address is the fact that this is a world wide systemic collapse of proportions never before witnessed by humanity and the insistance that cutting taxes and spending is going to rebuild the collapsed infrastructure system that drives the physical economy is absurd

-Revolt 426


-Revolt 426

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=84736.40



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