*This debate is cordial and interesting. This is what many in Freemasonry believe in. His words are found here.
Masonic Traveler: Thanks for the reply back. I very much enjoy the spirited debate and analysis, with someone as convicted as yourself. You are absolutely right, it is a free country, and as such, all opinions are valid, as are all faiths.
Response: It took me a while to make my response. I enjoy debates as well. I’ve debated many Freemasons before. I’m smarter and more intelligent now than I’ve been then. Well, we both agree that it’s a free country and I have a right to disagree with you and you have a right to be deceived and join Freemasonry. All opinions aren’t necessary all valid. For example, if I had the opinion that killing an innocent person is justm, that is an invalid opinion since innocent life deserves not death. There are universal truths found in many opinions though. Do you believe that all faiths are valid? If that is true, then you are wrong. Many faiths have extreme and illogical beliefs like pagans assigning divine qualities to nature or people worshipping a cow.
Masonic Traveler: First to presume your righteousness over someone else’s is wrong. Because you are of the opinion that God is on your side, and your interpretation of the bible is factual and correct is a huge presumption. What makes you right, but you think God told you so? How did he tell you, through messages in the scriptures that only you and a few others could decipher? Why didn't he tell it to everyone? Why just you?
Response: I never presume that I have righteousness over anyone else. I did say that there are absolutes in the world and not all religions are valid. Well, do you know how God is on our side? It’s by if our agenda is in accordance to the word of God. Again, you talk about the interpretation of the Bible. The fact is that tons of parts of the Bible don’t need elaborate interpretations. Tons of passages of the Bible are easy to understand like fornication being wrong (I Corinthians 6:9-11), God created man in the image of God (Genesis 1:27), and other concepts. This isn’t hard to know. You don’t need to have a college degree to understand the Bible at all. The next part of your words is silly. The Bible says perfectly that it gives human beings instruction so man can be approved of. The Bible in the New Testament has almost 25,000 copies and is the most preserved ancient document in human history. It is confirmed by science and many archaeological discovers. It set much of the moral course of America.
Masonic Traveler: Swearing death oaths is not taking the lords name in vain. There is no vanity in it, no spiritual gain to it. It is an act of solemnity that is a personal choice. Again, who are you to say that it is wrong, because the way you believe, you feel, is the way everyone should believe? Sounds fascist.
Response: Swearing death oath is taking the Lord’s name in vain. God never called people to kill other human beings if you violate the Masonic oath (even if it’s not literal, but solely symbolic). First, you know the Bible says not to kill and second Christ said these words:
“Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.” (Matthew 5: 33-37)
You call killing people if you violate an oath solemn. If that’s your version of solemnity, then I feel sorry for you. It is wrong. You seem to have a problem with moral absolutes. Again, death oaths are wrong, because it is wrong to threaten death against innocent human life. It is wrong, because the oath falsely won’t call the Light the Light of Jesus Christ, but a Masonic Light. It is not fascist to show my opinion. It isn’t fascist to warn people. I’m not a fascist. If you want to understand real fascism, look at Waco where the government and foreign troops killed men, women, and children in violation of Posse Comitatus. See the Chinese using executed body parts for cosmetic products. You need to look at the crisis in Dhafur. That's real fascism. Many Christians and religious folks assign wrong doing all of the time and this is normal.
Masonic Traveler: The all Seeing Eye is a relatively recent addition to Freemasonry, added sometime in the last 150 years or so. It is more representative of the concept of an all seeing God rather than a pagan symbol. Same as the pentagram. Though these symbols have been devices of Freemasonry for many years, they are recent additions. Much of the symbology of Freemasonry spawned from the Victorian age as members tried to give symbolic meaning to the ideas of the fraternity. You mention that Washington DC has man of "those symbols", but if you look closely, those symbols evolved over time through all of Europe to be deposited eventually into the ideas of a "New Republic" that was started as America. The only occult meanings put into them are from the simple minded who need to see it.
Response: The All Seeing may be used by Freemasonry recently and I trust your information since you’re a Mason yourself. On the other hand, even you know that the All Seeing Eye was utilized by ancient Egypt to represent the sun god Horus. This was why Moses and the Israelites rejected Egyptian paganism since they assign divine characteristics to mere creations of God. The All Seeing Eye originally was a pagan symbol along with the Pentagram. The All Seeing Eye of God isn’t the eye of God since God was never referred as a single eye, neither a single eye inside a triangle from the Holy Scriptures. Many New Agers use the Single Eye in their precepts. Sources like John Daniel’s Scarlet and the Beast, 33rd Degree Scottish Rite Freemason Albert Pike, Thomas Milton Stewart’s “The Symbolism of the Gods of the Egyptians and the Light They Throw on Freemasonry” prove that the All Seeing Eye is from the Ancient Mystery Religions meaning the Eye of Horus. As for the Victorian Age, I take your word from it, but many of Masonic symbols originated from the Ancient Mysteries also. Even Masons admit to that. D.C. does have those symbols of a Pentagram, Compass, etc. That’s admitted, so it isn’t a fantasy. The Inverted Pentagram has blatant roots to the occult. The Pentagram was used by the Babylonian, Greeks, and other civilizations for thousands of years. D.C. also has the Washington Monument representing the sun god and other images from pagan religions.
Masonic Traveler: The intolerance is in passing judgment, which in this case is your calling something evil and sinful. Because YOU think it is. I would question you further; do you think Jews are evil because they don't believe Christ is the Messiah? Do you think Muslims are evil for praying to Allah, and not believing what you do? That's where the intolerance comes from. It is intolerant to call someone evil for his or her faith, what ever it may be. To say they are wrong and going to hell for it is NARROW MINDED. You can dissent with other faiths, but to call them wrong, only shows your intolerance. You do have a First amendment Right to spew what your faith is, but to insist that others adhere to it, or your version of God will send them to Hell is intolerant. It's casting judgment, of which I'm sure you have half dozen scriptures on, but it's still imposing a matter of faith onto someone else. How this ties back to Freemasonry is that it accepts men of all faiths, all acknowledging God through their own faiths.
Response: I see that you still have the distorted definition of intolerance. Intolerance is hatred of someone because they have differences. I don't hate anyone because they are different. I hate evil and sin alone. I’m sorry, but calling certain things evil and sinful is normal for us humans. For example, I call abortion evil. I call murder evil. I call theft and cheating evil as well. If you don't like that, then you're misguided. As for judgment, judgment isn’t as monolith as you believe it to be. I can judge righteous judgment as Christ said in John 7:24. Judging corruption as evil is normal and justified as well. The concept of judging and judgment is not a monolith. Of course, we can’t judge every minute detail in life, but we are to hate evil. That’s common sense. I believe any Jewish person is evil when they involved themselves in any illegal or morally corrupt activity. If they don’t believe in the Messiah or Muslim pray to Allah, they are deluded people.
I have a right to believe in this. I never called anyone evil because of their faith. I call people wrong when they follow a false faith, there’s a difference. People have a right to call people faiths as wrong. Where did you get dissent as intolerance? Also, never do I condone forcing people to follow what I believe in. I never accept forced conversion at all. The bible is rather clear on Hell, regardless of your compromise on it. If you don’t accept the Word of God on Hell, then you can move on. I know what Freemasonry believes. Freemasonry is Universalism and you admitted to this by accepting men of all faiths and claiming that all men can go to heaven if they peacefully follow certain monotheistic religions.
Masonic Traveler: Obviously, this aspect is beyond you. You look only to the bible as a true and unaltered text of God's word, scribed by men of divine sanction. Bu how do you know that? What makes that true? Do you just believe that? Is it faith alone? What about before there was a finished bible, what did Christians have to go on then?
Response: I knew you would question the inspiration of the Word of God. My aspect of disagreeing with false religions is within me friend. I’m just a guy who’s not into the Universialist/One World Religion crowd. I look to the Bible as the word of God that’s accurately translated spanning thousands of years. I know it’s the word of God and true for tons of reasons. Let’s look at some facts shall we. I don’t talk about the OT much, because even the skeptics admit that the Massoretic texts involving the OT are very accurate. The New Testament is the most documented ancient source in history with about 24,600 copies (as proven by Let Us Reason Ministries). Scholars find that there is 99.99% free of significant variance in the NT. This was admitted by the great Greek scholar A.T. Robertson. Ancient documents like the Iliad and Homer have hundreds of years before their first copy is found.
The NT Bible has its first copy found in about 64 A.D. with the Magdelean Papyrus, which is less than 35 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Sir David Dalrymple says that all of the early church writings have every quote from the OT except 11 verses. So, yes, I’m very comfortable in believing the accuracy of the word of God. Christians used the OT before the NT was created. The Old Testament was created in that time as you know. The NT was developed by consensus among the early Church and NT Bible were formed as early as 147 A.D. with the Peshitta. 157 AD. The Old Latin Vulgate (Old Itala) was created. From 185-220 AD, Origen, born in Alexandria mentions all of the Books of the OT and NT. He makes over 18,000 citations.-250 AD was when the Sadhidic version was created from Upper Egypt. I have faith in God. I trust the Bible because of its accuracy, none controversial on its origin, thousands of copies, accurate archaelogical and scientific information, and other reasons. People died, so we can read it and I will not diminish the courage of men who preserved it like Tyndale, Wycliffe, Coverdale, and others. That's real.
Masonic Traveler: As some have written about Freemasonry as a religion, in many aspects they are correct. Freemasonry is an institution governed by faith of its members, but that faith is not the basis for their meeting. Neither is the focus prayer to a deity. The prayers in lodge are ceremonial but still solemn and true. They stand to recognize God through a universal prayer or recognition. If you want to use the idea that because prolific writers of Freemasonry set the tone, could I not use that premise to say that Christianities prolific speakers and preachers stand to represent the Christian ethos? So then, Pat Roberts is professing the true nature of Christ in wanting to Assassinate foreign dignitaries, and Catholic priests stand to represent all Christians as pedophiles? Because some people write or do something does not make them the ultimate spokesman for a group. How many religious leaders stood to defend segregation and racism? Were they right in their Christian values? Did they truly speak for God?
Response: I’m glad you admit to some religious aspects of Freemasonry. No Freemason that I’ve debated admitted to this at all. Freemason may not focus a prayer to a deity, but one of its requirements is to believe in a deity. Masonry having altar, prayers, the requirement to believe in one God, an universalistic attitude toward monotheistic religions, and other facts do denote Freemasonry as a Srythentic Religion. It's interesting to note that 33rd Degree Freemason Albert Mackey admitted that Freemasonry is a Religion. Mackey wrote that:
"...But the religion of Freemasonry is not sectarian It admits men of every creed within its hospitable bosom, rejecting none and approving none for his peculiar faith. It is not Judaism, though there is nothing in it to offend a Jew; it is not Christianity, but there is nothing in it repugnant to the faith of a Christian. Its religion is that general one of nature and primitive revelation—handed down to us from some ancient and Patriarchal Priesthood—in which all men may agree and in which no men can differ..."
You can believe in Universal prayer if you want. Again, you love to bash Christian by citing inaccuracies. That isn’t so intolerant Traveler. Ha ha ha ha !!!!!!! I thought you wanted me to be so tolerance friend. Well, let’s dig into facts shall we. Many Christian men, women, and children made great contributions in science, math, civil rights, history, etc. You know this and if I’ve list many of them, it would last many pages.
Many Christians are great speakers. Pat Robertson is wrong and just because a man profess to claim Christ’s teaching, doesn’t mean he is not immune from mistake. Pat made a mistake and he apologized for it. Pat is right about some moral issues though. Many Catholic priests are pedophiles and I don’t agree with Catholicism. That’s their business. You seem to forget the case of William Morgan. Morgan was a Mason, left, and he was a righteous man. He wrote a book exposing Freemasonry yet Masons killed them in following their death oath. This was in the case of Pat Robertson wherefore Pat violated the Word of God. Morgan’s death was in total accordance with the death oaths of Masonry. Charles Finney’s work validated the Masonic death of the heroic patriot William Morgan. That death was wrong. D. L. Moody is another man who disagreed with Freemasonry and was a strong Christian. Many Christians stood to fight against segregation and racism. You know this. John Quincy Adams stood up against racism and opposed slavery. Wilberforce in England stood up against segregation and slavery and England banned slavery on the part of his efforts. Many churches stood up against segregation in South. You’re forgetting something. Many Masonic Lodges for years segregated against blacks to come into the Scottish Rite. The Scottish Rite only accepts blacks recently.
Also, the Prince Hall Lodge was formed to disagree with the racism among many Scottish Rite members. Many Prince Hall Lodge people include Jesse Jackson, Collin Powell (33rd Degree), Scottie Pippen, Andrew Young, and Kweisi Mfume, and Julian Bond. The Prince Hall Lodge infiltrated many black churches. Even the B’nai B’rith lodge discriminates and only allows Jews to join it. That isn’t tolerance. Ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!! You shouldn’t have brought up this issue. Many leaders of the segregationist movement were Masons in the 1960’s like Governors George Wallace of Alabama (he changed later in his life), Orval Forbus of Arkansas, and Ross Barnett of Mississippi. Strom Thummad and Robert Bryd are Masons and each once supported segregtion. Bryd used to be a Klansman. Activities by Pat were wrong and it violated the Word of God, since they don’t speak for God in that instance. It’s as simple as that. Many Christians are fighting for truth like Cutting Edge Ministries, Liberty to Captives Ministries and other conservative Christians. We don't agree with Bush's agenda plus we stand up for our beliefs. Also, you cite nothing on many Christians opposing evil with great character. http://www.cuttingedge.org/fmcorner.html is a link that can help you demit from Masonry. I hope you leave.
Masonic Traveler: The last point I want to make is on symbolism. You mentioned the obelisks, and pentagrams, and I spoke of them earlier, but reversing the table do you celebrate Christmas with a Christmas tree and presents? Why, there is nothing in the bible that says Christ was born under an evergreen. Do you or children you know hunt for Easter eggs? More paganism in society I suppose you would say. Lastly, did Christ say to worship me though the form of an unequal cross? More symbolism, but from my recollection, Christ never said anything about worshiping him through the symbol. Symbols abound and when TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT can easily be misconstrued and interpreted.
Response: I used to celebrate Christmas. Now, I reject it as pagan filth. I already know about Christmas and I reject Easter. I do believe in celebrating the resurrection of Christ. Just because paganism exists in society, doesn’t mean we are to accept it. Just like crimes exist all across the whole, doesn’t mean we are to participate in it. Also, I don’t wear a cross. I don’t worship through a symbol or image at all. Symbols exists, but not all symbols denote positive attributes. Symbols are to represent another thing, but I don't obsess over them constantly or worship them.
Masonic Traveler: I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
Response: These are my thoughts backed up by history. It’s kind of ironic that you try to mock the concept of a “new world order” and “one world government” yet people like George H. W. Bush, Paul Warburg, Gorbachev, and others talked and supported a new world order or one world government for many decades. That's very real and it isn't fiction. Even Henry Kissinger recently promoted a New World Order in response to Bush’s visit to India. The New World Order is not a myth at all. Bush is pushing for the Pan American Union merging our economies and political structures with Mexico and Canada. I do respect Charlie Sheen questioning the offical story of 9/11 as well. I'm moving forward and exposing torture, exposing evil, disagreeing with execessive federal power, and standing up for our civil liberties. Freemasonry is just contrary to Biblical Christianity on so many levels.
By TruthSeeker24 (Timothy)
Dedicated to William Morgan.