Again, another discussion with Penelope
1) Did George Bush participate in any pagan ceremony at Bohemian Grove. If so, when was it?
Response: The Bohemian Grove is a notorious pagan place. That enough should deter any Christian from joining it. Also, Bush is pictured giving lectures at the Grove. I'm not 100% certain he is pictured at the Cremation of Care pagan ceremony, but many are pictured. Just because you don't practipitate in rituals in an elitist, occult club, doesn't mean you go to its headquarters or condone it. I don't condone any occult groups at all.
2) Buddhists can go to heaven. In my experience, very few will, but anything is possible.
Response: Unless Jesus Christ was a total liar, you are right that Buddhists can go to heaven. Yet, I don't believe Jesus was liar. The Bible is perfect clear that Jesus is the only way into Heaven: "...“Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). Many Buddhists don't even believe in one God, so that alone disqualifies the Buddhists to heaven right there.
3) My comments were not silly. Taking off your shoes is a religious practice in Japan. I, a Christian, have joined in several religious practices as a matter of etiquette. George Bush did the same. Do you really think he worshiped a Shinto god?
Response: Everyone has a right to their opinion. This isn't just about taking off shoes in Japan. This is about Japanese Christians and mainstream news accounts condemning Bush for worshipping in a Shinto shrine and clapping the hands of their false god. Religious practices? You can easily peaceful decline religious practices and be cordial in a foreign country. The scriptures forbids being involved with false religious practices that don't merit salvation: "... Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men."(Acts 5:9)
"For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; " (1 Thessalonians 1:9) Bowing before a false shrine is a worship. If it walks like a duck, squack like a duck, it's a duck.
4) No core conviction was violated. Even handshakes, nodding and verbal greetings are pagan practices. Worship emanates from the heart. Don’t you remember all the scriptures about that?
Response: Core convictions are violated when you clapped the hands to celebrate false gods, when people praise the false of Molech, and when you have death oaths which Jesus himself condemned in the book of Matthew. I find these things repugnant and offensive. This has nothing to do with simple handshakes, noddings, and greetings. Occultism is real in the world and we must expose it and help people to leave the dangerous world of the occult. The Bible says: "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. " (2 Timothy 4:2) Worship does come from the heart, but all acts don't by man aren't necessary good. We need to be careful of deception and make sure we are sincere and not violate the Word of God to try to "appear good." Even worldly people know that's a con.
5) Where does the Bible forbid working with un-believers. The scripture about being unequally yoked refers to marriage. Taken to the extreme, you are saying that no Christian should work for a non-Christian employer or with any non-Christian employees. As an employer, a Christian should never hire a non-Christian. Do you work with any non-believers?
Response: The Bible definitely forbids yolking with unbelievers: "...Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Corinthians 6:14) Obviously this verse has nothing to do with jobs or communicating with people of different creeds. This has to do with religious fellowship (i.e. baptism, commonion, etc.). In other words, we aren't supposed to have religious fellowship with unbelievers, unless if we want to share the gospel with them, etc. It's as simple as that.
6) I like the “fruit inspectors” line. I’m gonna steal it ;) I do agree with you in principle on most of this, but Christians are to be temperate and moderate. I’ll talk about keeping it between the ditches in closing.
Response: I agree with being a Fruit inspectors. I do agree Christians are to be temperate not moderate. Jesus want us to hot or cold, not moderate. A moderate Christian is a weak Christian like many on TV getting intimidated by far left extremists. You can be temperate and strong in your belief system at the same time.
7) I agree with you about judging. We are not to condemn others. That is not our place. However, we are to use good judgment in all things. I like your scripture references, and yes, I’m stealing them too. Ditches. Pastor Hagin taught about not getting into the ditch on either side. I took your yoking example to the extreme. I hope you get my point in that. George Bush is the President of the United States of America. He is the head of state of my country. As a Christian, I do not fault him for nodding at a Shinto shrine, clapping his hands (which is to scare away evil spirits) and writing his name in a book. Lester Sumrall visited Shinto shrines and visited with monks on more than one occasion. Japan is an important ally and showing respect is okay. As to Bohemian Grove, there isn’t enough information to form an opinion. If Bush’s involvement is like that of a fraternal organization, I can’t really condemn him for that either. If he were an active promoter of worshiping Molech, my opinion would be different.
Response: Judging is never monolthic. Therefore, we are to judge in some areas and not in others like someone's heart. Your stealing my scripture references? ha ha ha ha!!!! The Bible is free for all men. ha ha ha ha !!!!!!!!!!!!!! I get your point about yolking. George W. Bush is the President of the United States. That's all the more reason for him to set a basic explanation of sticking to his core convictions. The media demonize him as being a so-called "right wing" Christian, yet Bush doesn't agree with conservative Christians on every issue. For example, Bush allowed Planned Parenthood to recieve over $100 million, supports the agenda of the American Union (exposed by Ron Paul and Dr. Corsi, which is about forming one North American nation in the near future. This is part of the new world order that Patriots have talked about. This plan is further detailed in the document entitled "Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America or SPP"), etc. Many in the mainstream media hate conservative Christians anyway like Bill Maher.
I disagree with Bush being in a Shinto ritual, etc. No Christian should do that if a Christian did it, they should ask God for forgiveness. It's as simple as that and it isn't complex. We disagree on that point. Basic respect can easily be achieved with a Shinto ritual. There is tons of information to form facts about it. Alex Jones in his video "Order of Death" prove that a pagan Cremation of Care ritual takes place where people worship Molech, the false god of the ancients. The New York Post reports on how gay male prostitutes go to the Grove to service some of the members (although not everyone in the Grove are homosexual). The New York Post on Page Six (Archived Page) at July 22, 2004 reported on this truth. Elite secret projects are forumulated or proposed in the Grove (without American citizenry oversight) like the Manhattan Project and Star Wars. Alex Jones & Paul Joseph Watson from January 17, 2006 wrote about this. It's a occult orientated group that hold sway in the world, but it's not the most powerful group in the world.
My great-grandfather was a Mason. I believe the ritual of passing to the 31st degree contains an oath that no Christian should make. I’m not sure if or how he dealt with that, but, he was a good Christian man. His donations kept his Baptist church going. He helped pay for building expansion. My dad said he gave cash, quietly, to pay for the ministry for the kids after high school football games. His money also doubled the size of the other local Baptist church in town. You can’t buy your way into heaven and he wasn’t doing that. He put his money where his heart was. Notice, I said he gave money quietly. He never wanted recognition. I encourage you to pray for President Bush. He is the leader of the free world. The free world is where Christianity flourishes. This is an example of when differences between two Christians should be dealt with in private. Airing our Christian laundry in public does damage to the faith and it hinders the little ones.
-Penelope (if you have more information, please send it)
Response: People know how I feel about Freemasonry. Freemasonry in its modern sense existed in 1717. I've debated Freemasonry. All in all, the vast majority of Freemasonry are not Devil worshippers or hardcore evil people. Yet, Freemasonry is eerily against the scriptures on many level. One level is that in the Blue Degree, you swear a death oath including cutting your throat, etc. The Bible is Matthew forbids swearing death oaths and Exodus says "THou shalt not kill." Even if these oaths are symbolic, they invoke God's name and we aren't to take God's name in vain. There is deception also in Freemasonry. Albert Pike (a Confederate and one of them most Famous Freemasons in America) said:
"... Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled; to conceal the Truth, which it calls Light, from them, and to draw them away from it ... So Masonry jealously conceals its secrets and intentionally leads conceited interpreters astray." [Morals and Dogma, p. 104-5)
Pike was a 33rd Degree Freemason and his Morals and Dogma book is required reading for Freemasonry. Therefore, many Masons endorse lying to lower levels. This isn't Christian to me. The Bible says:
"... But as for the cowards and the ignoble and the contemptible and the cravenly lacking in courage and the cowardly submissive, and as for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd and adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters (those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God) and all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)--[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)
Lying is a sin and unrepetant liars are going to Hell. Pike supports lying, so he is a deciever. In essence, Freemasonry is the acceptance of pagan Mysteries merging with a belief in one God in trying to promote so-called "Tolerance, justice, and brotherhood." To merge the Mysteries and a belief in one God, doesn't cut it with God: "... What harmony can there be between Christ and Belial [the devil]? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?" (2 Corinthians 6:15)
Freemason Foster Bailey wrote that: "Study of spiritual realities found in Masonry reveals that we have perpetuated and increasingly activated the essential principals of the ancient Mystery Schools which have existed from the very earliest times." in his book the Spirit of Masonry.
Pagan symbols are present in the Lodge like the Inverted Pentagon, the circle and the dot, the obelisk (representing the Egyptian false sun god), All Seeing Eye (used for thousands of years as the Eye of Horus), etc.
According to 33rd Degree Freemason Albert Mackey, the dot and the circle refers to this:
“The point within the circle is an...important symbol in Freemasonry, but it has been debased in the lectures (given in lodges) that the sooner that the interpretation is forgotten by the Masonic student, the better will it be. The symbol is really a beautiful but somewhat abstruse allusion to the OLD SUN-WORSHIP, and introduces us for the first time to the modification of it, known among the ANCIENTS AS THE WORSHIP OF THE PHALLUS. (Albert Mackey, The Manual of the Lodge, Clark Maynard Co., New York, 1870, p. 156)
Freemasonry from its own writings is not based on the Bible and its accepts those of other creeds into "Brotherhood." Iti's a culture war in America. It's good to pray for our leaders, but we must expose evil. We must make known of the Presidents' errors so he can wake up. I really don't care if people see my words to you or not. I like debate as long as it's cordial. Freemasonry have great secrecy, yet Jesus said openly I spoke into the world and in secret have I said nothing. Freemasonry claims that they have a "Light" in their Lodges. Well, Jesus is the true Light of the World. Many Christians who have been deluded into Freemasonry may be sincere. They are just sincerely wrong. Freemasonry have therefore death oaths, accepts paganism, and uses deception in its lower levels to control its members.
That's reality. I've studied Freemasonry for many years. There is nothing wrong with freely talking about every issue under the sun. As for me, I will keep on talking about torture, the bad policies of the Iraq War, the evils of abortion, eniment domain, our civil liberties (oh yes the Patriot Act has been wrongfully utilized against Toy stores and innocent scientists), illegal immigration, the new world order (David Rockefeller is quoted as wanting an one world government. This is fact not fiction), and other important issues. Even Pope Benedict called for a New world Order. Me personally, I don't blame Bush for everything wrong in the USA unlike some in the far left. In the final analysis, we ought to fight for truth.
Good day, Penelope
By TruthSeeker24 (Timothy)